Right people, at the right time, carrying out proper tasks leads to well-served customers and partners. Isn’t it your ultimate goal of going Digital? How about driving the transformation, focusing on people first. How are you right-fitting workloads, work variety, and capabilities of your troops besides ensuring appropriate culture and engagement levels?
Contributors

• • David Chou, Chief Information & Digital Officer, Children’s Mercy Hospital
  • Edward Marx, Chief Information Officer, Cleveland Clinic

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  • Shifting from Digital New to Now
  • Ensuring Digital and Virtual Healthcare Security
  • Finding and Enabling your Digital-Friendly Culture

Transcript 

Sanjog Aul [00:00:20]:

Hello, and welcome to this segment on CTN. To learn more, please visit ciotalknetwork.com. And the topic for today isThe People First Digital. We have David Chou, who’s the Chief Information and Digital Officer with Children’s Mercy Hospital. Hey, David. How are you?

David Chou [00:00:38]:

I’m good. How are you guys doing?

Sanjog Aul [00:00:39]:

Very good. Amazing, Chicago weather. Can’t complain. Sunny. Once in a while, we get that weather in February too. So that’s what’s going on. And, we also have Edward Marx, who is the Chief Information Officer with Cleveland Clinic. Hi, Edward. How are you? Can I call you Ed?

Edward Marx [00:00:57]:

Ed’s perfect. I’m happy because it is a sunny day in Cleveland as well.

Sanjog Aul [00:01:01]:

So the reason we wanted to do this show is, of course, you know, everyone is talking about digital and, whether you look at business people or you talk about technology people, people. Everyone is talking digital, but then we have been always as soon as you talk digital, you start talking technology. And interestingly, the people, when you talk to them about their challenges, they say the people become the biggest challenges, whether they’re adopting or they are making digital happen. But then the end goal is also to make the lives of people better as a result of digital, which again could mean internal employ like customers, which is your own employees, or the people outside, which could be partners or customers. So we wanted to touch the people side where we would focus on at least the challenges which prevent people from focusing on people first because that’s the end goal, and they are the ones who are gonna make digital successful. So I’ll start with you, David. Here, we as I actually set the stage, it is all about people. But why do we then talk technology and think technology and get enamored with all this shiny toys, if you will, that are coming our way.

David Chou [00:02:21]:

Well, I’m glad you hit that point on the spot where it is about people. The reason why a lot of folks focus on technology because that’s the latest thing you could buy, and that’s probably the latest thing you could show off. So when I think about the, the buzzword digital transformation, one of the most overused buzzwords, it’s really you’re transforming a culture. It’s not about buying the latest and shiniest object. I think that can be a good tool to help you transform your business model. And another way, think about why we need to, why we’re going digital. You’re actually trying to utilize technology to create a new business model. It’s not about buying the latest and greatest. And so for me, it’s really you have to transform the culture first before you do any transformation, digital transformation inclusive. And that’s where it really start. That’s the fundamental basis. You have to get people’s mind shift to think a little bit differently, to be thinking customer first, whether that’s internal or external. And that’s the only way to start. It’s similar to organizations that’s going through lean transformation. Right? You talked about a lot of healthcare companies that are going through this lean journey. Very similar process. You’re redefining, sort of the culture first, and that’s where it has to start. And it is definitely spot on when you talk about people first rather than the latest shiny objects.

Sanjog Aul [00:03:41]:

And to that end, Ed, when we do have this mindset that we chase technology, but when we talk about people, it looks like fuzzy science to some. And that’s why they are afraid of dabbling in it. But how far can we sit on the sidelines and try to learn how to swim?

Edward Marx [00:04:03]:

I to David’s point, I think that people are enamored with these shiny, bright objects, sometimes for a lack of vision or lack of clarity where the organization is going, or the fact that from a consumerism point of view, all these shiny, bright objects are available today on the consumer side. Why can’t I have those in the business side? And so we’ve struggled with that in the past as well. We talk about going from pockets of brilliance to a division of excellence. But it all starts with this culture and the point of having people engaged and understanding where the organization is headed. And then to your question specifically, it’s how do we take the understanding of what’s available and how does that fit into our overall plan to enable, in our case in healthcare, the ultimate patient experience from both a quality perspective as well as a cost perspective.

Sanjog Aul [00:05:03]:

So when you discuss, when you mention experience, Ed, experience is for, of course, the customer is king and you want to serve them the best. But the experience for the people who end up delivering the right experience to the end customer is also important. So are we putting employees second and customer first? But do you think isn’t that a risky proposition? Because if they are not happy and they are not being not exactly treated well but taken care of, even with the digital tools that you’re gonna put out there, your end goal, they are the last mile. They are the last touch point to that customer, and they are the ones who deliver experience. So the focus is the focus on that?

Edward Marx [00:05:51]:

No. I think that it’s really important to focus on your front line and on your team to make sure that they can relate to the patient experience or the customer experience. And it’s interesting, and David may have had a different experience than what I’m about to express, but you would think that individuals who serve in technology roles would be at the forefront of digital, and be the first to buy the new shiny bright objects that might make themselves available on the consumer side. But I found quite the opposite. And so I think, to your point, that it’s really critical that you spend a lot of time first with your own teams to make sure that they understand what all the capabilities are, what all the opportunities are available, so that we can then relate to what our customers would like and need, and then be able to communicate that and collaborate with them in terms of this whole digital space. So I think sometimes we have moved too quickly beyond our own team, and there’s a deficit, and yet we are the ones that have to support what our customers are desiring. So I think it’s really important that you take the approach of the team first. I don’t know if it’s binary or not, but you take care of your team and at the same time, deliver this exceptional digital experience.

Sanjog Aul [00:07:19]:

So, David, you have a very, interesting mix of titles and, of course, responsibilities, the digital officer and the information officer. So information officer is the plumbing guy, and digital officer is the vision. I’m not saying information officers don’t have vision, and digital officer is supposed to drive revenue in some form or help a company rethink what’s possible in terms of experience they can deliver. So when you are measured on that, who do you lean back on to help fixing the underlying foundation, which is your own internal people, their respective needs, desires, and the ability to adopt the new digital or even otherwise take care of them so that the final end result is seen because I’m sure you’ll be measured by the end result as well.

David Chou [00:08:08]:

Yep. So I think you’re spot on in terms of why I purposely threw in upon taking this role, the digital officer. Yes. Traditionally, the CIO role is you at the back office. And but that’s not really the case when you look at most organization, when you think about who should be leading this charge. There’s a lot of mixed feelings, but in my personal opinion, I think it should be led by the CIO. But it goes back to what Ed brought up. There’s a lot of skills gap, whether it’s frontline staff, but there’s also a lot of our peers who may not be thinking digitally where they’re happy just me and the plumber. But the future role of the CIO, you can’t just be the plumber. You really have to figure out how to create I’m always going to touch base on creating new business models because that’s the whole point of having this leadership role. We’re trying to create new business model utilizing technology. So when I think about the role of the chief digital officer, we are here to try and help the organization, think differently, but also maximize our investments. So it’s a very there’s no defined line to say, okay, this is the CIO’s role, this is the chief digital officer’s role. It was easier for me to be able to have both, to be able to set the vision and have the team that executes upon that vision. My main goal is to make sure the technology vision is aligned with where the organization is headed. I’ve seen a lot of other organizations that try to play this card. Some big healthcare systems with great CIOs and a few conversations I have had with their CEOs are, “David, I have a great CIO who makes things work, keeping the lights on, but I feel like I’m missing something out. I don’t have that sort of next step.” Then what they do is they go out and hire a chief digital officer, and then it becomes a lot of conflict because you may have a chief digital officer that may not have the budget authority or even the staff to do the plumbing or even to maneuver some of the technology implementation. It just becomes really complicated. So, I think for a lot of organizations who are trying to figure out how to navigate this next step, it’s really important to figure out, number 1, who’s gonna help you lead this internally. Whether it is a current CIO or do you need to look elsewhere. But it’s important to be able to have the workforce to drive and implement and execute. And that’s where I think I believe the scale has advantage because even like in most organizations, they have the biggest budget authority along with the workforce. So now what they really is looking for is a leader like Ed to be able to set that vision and execute upon that vision.

Sanjog Aul [00:10:44]:

And no doubt that we need leader, someone who’s gonna paint a vision and be able to help people come along like a pipe piper. Awesome. That’s the that’s the that’s why the role exists. Now, Ed, coming to you, if we were to look at the skill, you mentioned that there is skill gap. Right? But then do you think there is also, an implied intent gap that do I really need if you talk to a technology person or even a business user because they are also responsible for delivering a digital experience? Both parties. Is there really an intent that, hey. You know what? I wanna stretch myself. I want to develop these competencies or even more so a mindset to deliver a new type of experience using digital. Who’s working on that? Where is that gonna come from? And who knows what type of intent has to be developed for them to really do the best with what’s available in terms of the digital toolset.

Edward Marx [00:11:44]:

I think it goes back to what David was expressing in terms of there’s a new skill requirement for a chief information officer, which should include this whole digital leadership aspect. And it rolls down from there. So there’s very few that are there yet. I think David is probably the foremost leader in that area, having headed that direction, and making a good example for other CIOs to follow. And I think we are seeing that shift now occur, and our professional organizations are helping with that, with training. And it needs to go flow all the way down, though, throughout the entire team, throughout the entire IT leadership ecosystem. Otherwise, what good is it if you just have the CIO who’s embraced this idea of digitalization, but yet no one beneath them. And then when you have a succession plan, it’s just not deep enough. And so to your point, it needs to be much deeper. And part of this new way of operating that David was referring to also includes a more collaborative effort with our business partners. So in the past, it may have been a lot of IT directedness. IT sort of in a silo. IT doing their own thing. And in this future state, I call it present state, but for many it’s sort of future hope, is that there’s this cross collaboration, especially on the digital side, very close with our business and in our healthcare clinical partners. And so that you could walk into a room and maybe not know who, which one is the CIO and which one is the physician, because they are collaborating so closely, talking about how to digitize their current environment, again, to address patient safety issues, or clinical quality, or and drive down the cost of health care. So it has to be pervasive throughout the organization, and at the same time, we can’t think of it just in terms of IT centric, but it’s really this whole collaborative sort of culture working closely with the business. And again, it’s going to be up to a very progressive CIO who can take this concept and push that down through their organization. And there’s many ways of doing that, and perhaps we’ll get into that. But that’s the kind of leadership that’s going to take a collaborative approach, and a purposeful approach to make sure that it’s pervasive throughout the entire team.

Sanjog Aul [00:14:08]:

Let’s take a quick break, listeners. We’ll be right back. And, David, when I come back, let’s talk about the for and by people version or flavor of digital. Because we see that there is a separation. Yes. You may be the digital officer, and yes. You will have a team of people. But how removed are you when you’re ideating or even thinking through the experiences you want to deliver and then how does that get validated with the end adopters of that experience that you’re talking about? If there is gonna remain a separation and if there will never be an end and to edge point the collaboration that we’re talking about the CIO and the physician, you cannot separate between the two. But to what degree is that happening? Is it in isolation? And if it’s in isolated cases, how can you make it mainstream so that it becomes digital efforts become for and by people. Please stay tuned, listeners. We’ll be right back.

Sanjog Aul [00:17:02]:

Welcome back. So if we were to make digital efforts for and by people, where would you start? What would the journey look like? And what’s the investment needed? David.

David Chou [00:17:15]:

The place that I will really start is understanding your cultural or your organization DNA. So what does that mean? Let’s break it up. Let’s break that down to 4 categories because this is really critical in terms of how fast you can move and how quickly can you influence adoption. So when you think about your organization, do you view your organization as a leader? Meaning, you’re the first to try something, whether the first to buy the latest technology tool or the first to change the business model. Organizations that come to my mind in the healthcare arena would be one that we’re at that, like the Cleveland Clinic, the Mayo Clinic. You know, those folks are considered the leaders. Or do you think that your organization in the second bucket as fast followers? Meaning you’re watching these leaders, the Cleveland Clinic, the Mayo Clinic really put forth some efforts into disrupting the healthcare vertical. And right behind them, maybe 3 to 6 months, you’re adopting a similar approach. Or the third bucket, the third category, which most organizations are would be considered a cautious adopter. And that’s where you’re slowly monitoring these leaders and fast followers, disrupt. And then once it gets to a proven mechanism where you feel comfortable, that could be 6 months, that could be 1 year, it could be 2 years, then you start really following and taking that lead and really changing your model from a digital aspect. Or the fourth bucket, which I hope most organizations are not in, it will be a laggard. So about 30% of organizations are still considered laggards throughout the world. And that’s where you’re the last to try something new, whether the last to implement a solution or the last one to change an experience or even the last one to implement something as the EMR, which would probably the first step in terms of being electronic. So when I think about how organizations need to where they need to start, I really have them think deeply in terms of where does the organization culture stand in terms of those 4 buckets. Because that’s going to dictate how successful you could be in terms of driving that adoption. And most importantly, how quickly can you change? And these are hard discussions to have because everyone’s gonna go and say, well, we think we’re market leaders or we think we’re fast followers or in reality they may be cautious adopters. So in my experience, that’s where I have started in terms of having those tough discussions with the senior leaders. And even with the IT departments to understand where do we fit in and how do we transform to really be agile and move a lot quicker.

Sanjog Aul [00:19:52]:

Ed, how do you, solicit input from the end, potential consumers or doctors of this digital? And especially when what you’re pulling out or putting together as innovation, if you will, may not be thought of by these end customers because it’s almost like Steve Jobs angle that you do not the people don’t know what they want till I show them. Are you there yet, or we are doing those incremental better looking mousetrap type innovation using digital so we are playing safe? 

Edward Marx [00:20:25]:

Well, for us at the Cleveland Clinic, and to David’s point, I think it may be an outlier. We have the opposite problem, or I shouldn’t call it a problem, but a challenge. So this organization oozes with innovation and digitalization. And we have many, many individuals who are extremely bright, who are always looking for what’s the latest way that we can digitize some sort of process that we have today to enable a better caregiver experience, be that internal employee, which we call caregivers, or a patient. And so I spend a good part of my week spending time with very entrepreneurial clinicians who believe they have the next great idea. And in fact, if you look at our history, there’s been many, many great innovations that have come out of here, because that’s just the culture to David’s point early on of the organization. So there’s a lot of interest already. But I think what you can do, and what I’ve done in the past, is a couple of things to solicit it. One is we used to do our own TEDx. So this is a practical thing that you could do. We did our own TEDx, so we worked with ted.com. We did a TEDx for Texas Health, for instance, in New York City. And within that, we would then solicit individuals to come and speak. And part of that was a contest where we allowed people to innovate and come up with a great idea, and then they were given a chance to pitch. So essentially had a pitch part of our TEDx. So we talked a lot about innovation. They heard some speakers talk about actual innovation. But then we had a whole segment where individuals could pitch, and the person who won that pitch, we then invested in that product idea to try to take it to market. So that’s one way of inspiring interest, if there’s none already, is do a TEDx. It’s not too difficult or expensive to do. And then as part of it, have a pitch day, have a pitch segment, and allow the creative people, encourage the creative people, the innovative people who have the digital ideas to come and express them, and then invest a modest amount of money into making one of those happen. So if you’re not in an organization like a Mayo or a Cleveland Clinic that may already be super progressive or David’s organization, then do something like a TEDx. Or, again, if you don’t wanna do TEDx, you could do a straight out pitch. So do a pitch day, and I’m telling you, people will come out of the woodwork with these great ideas that you would never think of on your own. So there are two very practical things that one can do.

Sanjog Aul [00:23:04]:

That is fantastic. As an idea and a question for you would be is this innovation or these TEDx, etcetera, limited to the people from within or maybe at most partners such as clinicians or other physicians who work with you? Or does it span to include a patient or a patient’s family member or someone who tells you that, hey. This is what we think we need.

Edward Marx [00:23:30]:

So to the patient point of view, our governance council for IT includes patient. So that is one way that we do solicit patient input and the whole patient experience into our processes. And this is a governance committee that’s chaired by myself and the CEO of the organization. So these patients have direct access to speak to the leadership of our organization and to share ideas. So that’s one thing you can do. In terms of the TEDx, what we did, although that’s brilliant to include patients, we did not do that. But what we did do is we included vendors and other community leaders. So we would allow a vendor not to do a sales pitch, but to talk about innovation. Maybe what else can we do with HoloLens, for instance, in terms of replicating cadavers? Not a sales pitch, but again, just something to get you to think and blow your mind, which then helps the creative juices flow. And so that’s one thing that we did do is the vendors. And then the other thing we did do is we brought in external speakers or individuals in the community who were doing something quite innovative. And again, just to spark ideas, to spark dialogue. But to your point, in your question, to include a patient segment would take it to the next level. Great idea. 

Sanjog Aul [00:24:53]:

So, David, to that end, when you are looking at enabling, the employees and the partners to serve that deliver that unified digital experiences across devices and across touch points, What are the mistakes that you see organizations make in this journey? Because many times we can learn from those mistakes maybe you would have made or anyone else that you know may have gone through it and that had caused them, some delay or some loss in terms of not being able to deliver the experience.

David Chou [00:25:25]:

So the one thing I have learned throughout my career is every company has an Apple or Google employee in there somehow. There’s a talent in your organization that could work for those companies. But how do you find them? I think that’s the tough part. So you have to create that environment of where you allow people to brand ideas. And any idea has to be constructive in terms of let’s figure it out. Let’s create an ecosystem and environment where there’s a safe harbor where no one’s gonna say that’s a dumb idea. So one of the things that I’m trying to do or I have done internally, just bring in the folks. We have a lot of great developers in our organization, and not every one of them reports us IT now. So creating an environment where people can come together and talk about what they wanna build, something for the institution, or even something that’s relevant to organizations but not part of their daily duties, I think that creates an excitement. So now we have people in research and informatics that have a dotted line for IT, but may not be a direct report. Now they’re working together to try to build something with our Amazon Echo to try improve a patient outcome or just a patient experience. And it started with just creating that environment with bringing everyone together similar to what Ed was referring to trying to do with TEDx, outside to bring in third parties. You can also take that same approach just with your internal employees. Think about how many great ideas you could have internally. So I would say that’s one thing I’ve learned to embrace is understanding there’s a lot of talent that you have internally and how do you bring them out of the woodworks? I think that’s the challenge. And part of the role for the CIO. Right? It’s not the one thing that one thing that I always refer to is it’s not about just being that chief information officer. We also have to be that chief influence officer. Because you think about our role nowadays, we’re trying to influence decisions. We’re trying to influence behaviors. It’s not about just keeping the lights on anymore. So that’s a big shift, the role in terms of where it is today and where it was even 5 years ago. But I would definitely say, one of the lessons learned is look internal first before you go out and try to work with every startup or a manufacturer because you may be surprised as far as what you find internally.

Sanjog Aul [00:27:39]:

So, Ed, as a source of motivation, some things some people say it is what’s in it for me type motivation. So you incent them and that will pull them out. Another is that say, what can I do to create value for others? That looks like more altruistic, more selfless. What have you seen when you are going in this journey? What has prompted the people who work with you as, reporting to you and or part of your organization or the extended enterprise? What has made a bigger dent in terms of getting people to come on board and really live digital and deliver that experience voluntarily?

Edward Marx [00:28:20]:

I think the biggest thing so we do both at the Clinic. We’re definitely incentivized to, you know, we have our own innovations group, we have a venture capitalist group within the Clinic. There’s definitely incentive to invent and those sort of things. But I’m going to tell you the biggest thing that I’ve experienced and seen, and it’s again, on a practical level, is you have to reach the individual caregiver or employee’s heart. And so, I volunteer weekly in our cancer hospital because I can get disillusioned or frustrated with different things that go on in life, and I have to recenter, rebalance. And when I volunteer with these very sick patients, it recenters me and makes me rethink how can I make their lives and their caregivers’ lives better? And so what we do is every employee, and I’ve done this for about 10, 15 years now, every employee once a year spends a full day in a clinical setting. And the ideas that come out of that is perhaps the greatest thing in terms of innovation, because sometimes they don’t know. They don’t know, for instance, that what, we’re still using pagers and there’s a delay or they see a process where there’s huge delays because it’s still a paper based process, and they’re like, wait, we can do x, y, and z with that to address that and make that an automated process, or we can, oh, wow, you have to enter an order for that every time, or it takes you 10 clicks to do that with an electronic health record? Wait a second, we can create a macro. Sometimes it’s simple things, sometimes it’s more complex things, but it’s that, hey, spend a day in the life, the shoes of a customer, or a patient, or observe the patient. And suddenly you impact the heart, which then sort of releases ideas and emotion about what can I do? How can I apply digital to this situation and automate things to make life again better for the patient? And to, you know, what we call in healthcare right now, a big thing is around physician burnout. And so what can I do innovatively that will address physician burnout? And I’m telling you, I can give you a lot of stories, but I think I just gave you a practical example of how to do this. But a lot of stories where we had individuals in IT create an application very simply that actually saved people’s lives from that experience. So that’s probably the single biggest practical thing I could share.

Sanjog Aul [00:30:59]:

Let’s take a quick break. Let’s just we’ll be right back. And David, it’s a great segue I had provided about physician burnout. Let’s talk about the workloads of the people who are responsible for delivering digital. If their heads are spinning with lot of different activities they have to perform in order to get their paycheck, even though they don’t want to work for their paycheck, they want to do something bigger, but if their workloads and work variety is not properly managed, even the heart is moved, but they don’t simply would not have the strength to work on those or have the energy to ideate. What do we do about that? How do we create that free time or thinking time when we are already overburdened with everything else that we are doing so that we can go in the right direction with digital? Please stay tuned, listeners. We’ll be right back.

Sanjog Aul [00:33:47]:

Welcome back. So talk about burnout. Yes. We spoke about physician burnout. Yes. We have to look at how we can ease their workload using digital, but let’s also talk about the burnout of the people who are working in IT or other supporting business, users or buzz business related, community. Because if they are not getting the free time, the raw thinking time, how will they ideate? How will they help innovate as per Ed, like, even if he’s doing TEDx, who would come to a TEDx if they did not get the time to think about what’s new possible, what’s new and what’s possible?

David Chou [00:34:23]:

David? Yep. So when I think about just IT burnout, when I look at my staff, there is a lot of burnout. And one of the things that I am trying to do is help the department and even the organization prioritize. What really happens is we get thrown lots of things to do. And those massive number of whether small projects or big implementations is causing a lot of burnout. So I’m really putting together a 3 to 5 year roadmap of this is all we’re gonna focus on and really setting the focus for the team so that they do not have this burnout. And I do agree, people need some time to start thinking about the future, getting educated because they’re always working on something or firefighting, then you probably have a dysfunctional IT department. Whereas if things are working smoothly and your team have a lot of time to think about what’s next, optimize what you have built. That’s when you have a well run department. But that really starts with putting together a strategy and just the priorities. You can do everything. And it’s important as leaders for us to really influence the organizations and get buying and consensus. Say, this is all we’re gonna focus on for the next 3 to 5 years. Then start breaking those down. I like to break them down into sprints, which is very similar. It’s like an agile methodology where for the next 2 months, all hands on deck with the team, we’re focused on this one effort. And we’re gonna knock out this one effort that’s aligned to the organizational object. And then we move through other projects versus having things done in silos. So that’s the approach that we have taken. I’ve been here for almost 2 years. 2017 was really about planning, getting the team built, putting together the vision and the strategy. And even some of these road maps that we have in place. But 2018, we’re starting to break down the projects a lot more and say no. And that’s part of the approach that we’re taking to move away from having IT and staff burnout because they’re just overwhelmed with the number of requests and things to do. And it’s up to us as leaders to try to help them prioritize to make sure everything’s aligned to the organization’s objective.

Sanjog Aul [00:36:40]:

And, when we are looking at the same approach that you just mentioned, Ed, if I were to come to you and ask you to come up with a strategy or an approach and get the executives to buy in to say, guys, I will take on x number of projects, but anything above that is gonna burn out my people, and I’m trying to do the innovation. So I may have to bow out of it. Does that fly?

Edward Marx [00:37:08]:

I think if you can use data, it does work. So if you use emotion, it’s not going to work. So for instance, however you want to bifurcate your time allocation, you need to have a very robust time system so that you do know where all the level of effort is being placed by your team. And so you could use the run, grow, transform model. That’s the one we happen to use. And we say, you know, today we spend 80% of our time on run, 15% on grow, and 5% on transform. Strategically, where do we want to be? We really want to be at about 50% run, and the other 50% focus on strategy and transformation, growth and transformation. So when we convene our governance council, which I spoke about, which again, the Chair is the CEO, is we look at everything and we say, look, when we do this, is this a run, transform, or grow? And so we really split things up in that sort of classification. And so if the organization wants to spend any more time beyond that in any one of those categories, it calls for either a reduction in some other bucket, or it means we increase the number of individuals in our team to help bring that particular initiative across the line. So again, we use data. We show the data. We show how our decisions impact the three different buckets I spoke about. And again, do we, the question always becomes, do we stop something and create the margin to take on something new? Or do we add on resources to enable that new project or initiative?

Sanjog Aul [00:39:00]:

And when we are looking at the work variety, so we speak about, the workload, David, when you keep throwing new things at them, realistically, time slicing or brain slicing, at what point it becomes a lot of diminishing returns? Because frankly, in digital, more than anything else, you got ideas coming like there is no tomorrow. And if you want the same people to process them, to make sense of them, to rationalize them, and maybe even work on them, how far would you go?

David Chou [00:39:34]:

Yeah. That’s a tough one. I wish I had that magical easy button to push. But it’s hard. It’s tough to when I think about my role, I have to filter out some of these requests as well, before it hits my team. Otherwise, there’s a lot of filtering that goes through me just to make sure I set the expectation or even educate the organization. Great idea, but maybe timing is not right. When I think about how organizations can do more, it’s a very simple equation. Yes. We have to show data to show where the resources are being filled at, and data can definitely help. But there’s only one magical thing that can help you do more. That’s you gotta give me money. Money for either resources or to buy something. And that’s how but when you start getting bad questions, and that comes back to, are you wanting to make an investment as an organization to get these things done? People start shying away. So that’s one of the things I like to use data for. But also, I like to put together financial performance and say, happy to do it. Here’s what the investment will be. Are you willing to make that investment? Because that may mean we’re taking dollars away from a different area, and putting that investment towards digital or technology. So those are the realistic discussions that our peers need to get to be able to run the department like a business the same way, a CEO runs any organization. We have to think of ourselves as the CEO of the department. So it’s important to show data, important to really show the financial performance for everything that we’re doing. And that’s sort of my magic answer to solving some of these initiatives that’s being thrown over to say yes or no, or maybe we’ll put it on a table to think about it during the next budget cycle.

Sanjog Aul [00:41:22]:

So, Ed, digital doesn’t really come in a predictable fashion. An idea is what you pick. It looks good on the surface. When you start digging deeper, you see there are certain other tentacles coming out which you have to tackle for you to find your way through navigate and then eventually make it happen. So do you subscribe to that bimodal or even trimodal if that’s there’s something like that exists to allow people to really be in their own lanes so that they always have some raw thinking capability available so they can navigate through this and also keep the lights on. How are you dividing or separating out the innovation function from keeping the lights on function?

Edward Marx [00:42:06]:

So we’re addressing it two different ways. And to David’s point, there’s no perfect solution. And even what I’m going to share with you comes with its own set of challenges. But one is, we have a team carved out, like a tiger team. We have a team of, it’s a pretty sizable team, but it’s all a matter of scale, so I won’t give you the number. But it’s a sizable team that we have that focuses on that unplanned, but super idea that aligns with the organization mission and vision, digital experience. And so we have a team, very high, these are probably the best of our best in many regards, that tackles these different things. And then even they come up to a point where they can’t take any more on. But it is nice to have that carved out. And I also have a peer, who, what she does, is she has the same team, but they are funded directly from the business. So the business comes up with this new idea that wasn’t planned for. It’s a great idea. So they kick in funds, and these funds pay for their Tiger team. And she has done this for several years quite successfully. And so her Tiger team can increase or decrease in size based on the amount of demand that they get every year. And that naturally helps provide a governor because now people have to pay for it. Where in some cases, you know, we provide this free quote unquote asset. So that’s another way. And then the final, practical example I could give to you, although we’re very early stages, is our entire IT division is becoming agile. So we’ve always done agile software development. We’ve done agile PMO. But just like Spotify or Amazon or a lot of our West Coast, newer companies, we are transforming IT into an agile organization. So I believe that by doing so, it’s going to free up additional resources for us to focus more on digital and focus on those strategic things that are really important to the organization. So I have great hope that everything that I’ve read and the design that we’re implementing will give us additional margin to really be bimodal, if you will.

Sanjog Aul [00:44:27]:

Let’s take a quick break, listeners. We’ll be right back. And David, when we come back, let’s think about this whole concept of not truly preparing your people but let them jump in and let them learn. Because seriously, there is no training available for something which is coming so new. Like, it’s literally, ahead of the curve. You cannot truly train people because you do not know what that’s gonna bring. What do you do in terms of your ongoing capability development and management when it comes to people, especially when you’re dealing with these new things that are coming up which are fundamentally disrupting the way the way you do business and or you apply IT? What would that look like? Please stay tuned, listeners. We’ll be right back and explore.

Sanjog Aul [00:47:05]:

Welcome back. So, David, we talk about capability, development, and management within the workforce and which requires that, okay, if in an ideal world, you will know what’s coming ahead of the curve. You would have training programs and trainers ready, and there is someone who is willing and eager to learn the new thing besides what they are already doing. So if all of those fell into place, then, yes, you have a great plan. But I guess given digital, things are unpredictable. They come fast. You don’t have trainers. And people who are already burnt out or they’re doing way too much are not as eager and interested in learning. How do you manage the capability?

David Chou [00:47:44]:

So the way I have tried to manage it is a lot of this comes down to personal and individual motivation. Thinking about how companies in general, in terms of their entire workforce break it usually breaks down into thirds. So the top third of your department staff members or organization, these people are extremely engaged. They wanna do everything. They’re thinking above and beyond. They’re just thinking ahead. Then you have the second tier, the second third, that’s probably doing a good job. They may not be thinking ahead, but they’re doing what they’re supposed to based on their job description. And then you have the last third that may be laggard. They’re just trying to scrape by. Just happy to be here. They’re waiting for the time of the day to end so they could get home. So how do you motivate individuals to get to the next level? Meaning, how do you motivate the laggards to get to that middle tier? The middle tier could have top tier. I think that’s where it really comes down to just get people engaged and thinking differently. I like to have personal discussions with individuals that are motivated and that’s really thinking ahead or even help them drive and help them think about what it’s really gonna do for them. Whether, helping them plan their future career path, whether within our organization or a different organization. I think that’s a very different model than what a lot of folks may take. Or just sharing ideas. One of the reasons why I’m a big believer in social media is because it allows me to have that one to many conversations. I could learn from so many great thought leaders in the world. At the same time, I can share what these folks are thinking about as well. And also, I could have a conversation. So I try to utilize some of those tools, even internally, where I’m trying to create a social organization internally by utilizing tools such as Yammer, where I could have that one to many discussion just for people to think ahead, think about what’s out there, whether it’s from a technology aspect, whether we’re looking at AI or even things like blockchain. Why can a technology like blockchain change the world? So those are the kind of tools I like to use to communicate outwards, but I really like to focus on what’s in it for these individuals, for the employees individually? And at the same time, how do I motivate them to get to where they wanna be in life? And that’s been my approach.

Sanjog Aul [00:50:12]:

No. That’s great. And building upon it, so suppose you’re able to do whatever you could to motivate them and give them the social media and other open channels to go and learn on their own. So coming to you, Ed, would you say there has to be some science to this learning so that it’s focused at least partially towards the business outcome you’re thinking of? So workforce capability has to be managed. Capability means some total of the skills and the time available and everything else. But coming to the skills development and competency development, don’t you have to have some sort of a structure which says, okay. This is where we are going. This is the kind of learning even though I don’t have a trainer available, or we have to train the trainers so that there is some science to this madness and people don’t end up learning the wrong game of golf or just going dissipating their energy and not truly ready for playing the game?

Edward Marx [00:51:04]:

I would first emphasize David’s first answer, and that’s the individual motivation. So you have to hire right to begin with. So if you hire internally motivated individuals, they will rise up to any sort of challenge, and they will be among the first to really look into the future and see how they need to reassess their skills. But certainly, we work closely with our human resource partners, and we look at where we are headed as an organization, and the whole digital space, and what do we need in the future, and so how do we modify our training programs and those sorts of things, or hiring processes to make sure we get that skill set. That said, I think one practical thing that we do, or have done, is work with local universities in developing the talent pipeline. So I have sat on a few local university advisory boards, helping define curriculum for the future, because some of them were stuck 10 years ago. So helping them. And then we work with these universities and have this pipeline. So what we will do is take these students, these new graduates, and while they’re in their undergrad, like junior and senior, they’ll intern with us for 2 years until they graduate, and then we’ll see if there’s a match at the end for them to stay with us. And typically, they therefore come out with new skills that we’re looking for. So together, they sort of blend into our culture and bring some of that knowledge with them. So that’s one very practical thing that you can do in terms of workforce development. The other one is we do a lot of internal training as well. So we believe in making sure that people are trained up, those who want to be trained, that we invest heavily in them, and we’ll send them to formal classes as needed. But in order to be even more effective and spread the greatest amount of training available, we do a lot of internal training. So I’ll give you an example. Now, this one is not a software application, digital example necessarily, but it comes down to leadership, which is where it all starts and ends. So David and I, we know this program in our professional organization, it’s called a tag like a boot camp. It’s like leadership for technologists. And so we’ve replicated the same program that may be very expensive and difficult to send your individuals to go, but we’ve replicated that program internally where it costs us nothing but our time. And so we have now taken a couple of cohorts, both here and where I’ve come from, through this process. So each time we do that, and it’s a 1 year long training, it’s a significant investment, but there’s 10 new leaders that now know, understand how to lead from a business perspective. And then the next year, another 10, and then another 10. I’m pretty sure you have thirty, forty, or whatever critical mass is in scale in your particular organization. But very practical to, again, work with your local universities and make sure that they’re teaching the right things, and then interning them and hiring those students. And the second is replicate good programs that you know about internally, and there you can do that on a low cost and yet effective way.

Sanjog Aul [00:54:15]:

On behalf of the show and our listeners, thanks so much, David and Ed, for sharing your views on how organizations and the leaders can focus on people first to get most out of digital. And, listeners, please like us on Facebook, search for CTN, and be sure to follow us on Twitter, join our LinkedIn community, and our podcasts are available on iHeart, Spotify, TuneIn, iTunes, Stitcher, you name it. Wherever you go to listen to your podcast, you’ll find CTN. Thank you again for listening to this segment on CTN. This is Sanjog Aul, your talk show host. Till next week, take care, and God bless.