Our next generation of talent is technologically savvy, likes informality, embraces diversity, learns quickly, yet needs supervision. Their learned behavior and attitude patterns are relatively different compared to previous generations. Can traditional leadership approaches and behaviors be adopted to lead this next generation of talent, or will new approaches have to be mastered to best adhere to their skill sets and way of learning? What should change in order to harness this new generation’s tremendous potential?

Contributor

• • Philip Stevens, EVP and CIO, Army and Air Force Exchange Service

  • Teri Pennington, Deputy CIO, City of Austin, TX

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 Transcript

Sanjog Aul [00:00:26]:

Hello, and welcome to CIO Talk Radio. To learn more about this show, please visit www.ciotalkradio.com. And as always, we invite you to join the discussion on Twitter, hashtag c t r live, and look for this show as hashtag talent and hashtag leadership. Today’s topic is, leading the next generation of talent, and our guests for today’s show are Philip Stevens, who’s the executive vice president and CIO with Army and Air Force Exchange Service. How are you, Phil?

Philip Stevens [00:00:57]:

I’m doing fantastic. Thank you.

Sanjog Aul [00:01:00]:

Great. Great to have you. And we have Teri Pennington, who is the deputy CIO with the City of Austin, Texas. Hi, Terry. How are you doing?

Teri Pennington [00:01:07]:

We are doing just great here in Austin, Texas.

Sanjog Aul [00:01:10]:

So, regarding the topic today, so we have discussed talent related challenges in our past shows. However, the angle that we would like to take today is to see, yes, we might inventory the differences, not truly the shortcomings, but differences in this new generation of talent. And instead of us trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, what do we need to do as leaders and as organizations to make sure we harness the most out of this new breed of talent? That’s the core. And to that, Terry, I’d like to start with the first question where we talk about demands that are being placed on organizations and correspondingly on your IT department. And they are more than ever, more complex, more in quantity, and more in speed, if you will. If you had to maintain your sanity and also be able to have a sustainable organization and if it was a private sector, then also profitability, what would you think those are which are kind of making us go crazy a little?

Teri Pennington [00:02:19]:

Well, certainly, the City of Austin is probably like no other place in the country where your IT department is being asked to do more with less. I think we’re also really looking at innovative solutions to business problems. Now one of the problems that the city has is that we are essentially over 40 businesses. So that ability to really focus is really difficult for us. So we really need agile talent who can switch from figuring out how to work on a flood early warning system to change over to traffic control.

Sanjog Aul [00:03:00]:

Now are those the challenges that you have today? And assuming since you are a city, those challenges will remain. Are there any other more complex challenges that you foresee that you’ll be facing?

Teri Pennington [00:03:13]:

Well, budgets are always an issue and the City of Austin is growing at an alarming rate and the ability to have affordability here in Austin has been really on the council’s mind. So anything that we can do to make Austin the most livable city is something that we really need to strive for. And one of the things as a support organization is to really partner up with the businesses in the city that then serve those citizens.

Sanjog Aul [00:03:45]:

Now, Phil, coming to you, you have a totally different beast that you deal with, and you it’s better coming from you in terms of what type of organization that you run. But compared to what you’re dealing with today, what do you see changing or morphing in terms of complexity and scale, which would require you to, or basically, which is gonna, pose even higher, more complex demands on your organization and your technology department?

Philip Stevens [00:04:10]:

Yes, it’s definitely an interesting question. On the one hand, I agree with Terry that some things absolutely will continue. The need to drive down operational costs so we can focus our investment on new solutions. That’s been true for years. It’s going to remain true. We need to empower and accelerate the business. And so IT has for a long time been working on automating business capabilities so that the business employees could perform those functions themselves. That’s going to continue. Let them run the day-to-day operations. We’ll work on building the future. So for IT, what that really means, beyond the obvious, is that we need a bimodal approach. We need to be able to do enterprise resource planning projects with a traditional large-scale project approach and we need to be able to turn other projects around in a more agile delivery method. And so that bimodal approach to IT is new for us and

Sanjog Aul [00:05:12]:

I think true perhaps for some other retailers. Now when you do talk about the bimodal approach here, Phil, does that have a direct bearing on the kind of skills and competencies you might be looking at acquiring and or foreseeing that this is where you’ll have to go?

Philip Stevens [00:05:30]:

Absolutely. It does have a bearing on skills. It has a bearing on our processes. We have to design for it. One of the things that we have done about 1 year ago, we created a new organization that included technical experts. So we pulled technical experts out of our vertically aligned development teams, put them into this pool of experts so that they could be shifted to different projects that arise. And so in terms of the requirements on each developer, it requires them to be technically deeper. It requires them to be strong at methodology so that they can be moved from one project to the next. And then in terms of the organization, it requires new roles and skills that we’ve never really had or thought about before. For example, we have a resource manager position whose job it is to look at the resource pool, the pool of experts and the demand for upcoming projects and services and make sure we’ve got the talent we need.

Sanjog Aul [00:06:37]:

So, Terry, in your world, since City’s functioning does not change, but you definitely like to continually improve it, which requires perhaps in some cases changing the processes, optimizing them, and maybe deploying newer and better technology. All of that can be in an ideal world, everyone that you have today could continue and they could be retrained, etcetera. But what do you see as a challenge in terms of being able to do that?

Teri Pennington [00:07:06]:

Well, about 30% of our IT staff is eligible to retire in the next 2 years. The Austin market is competing with GM, Charles Schwab, Home Depot, Google, and IBM. So we are in a very difficult situation. We have limitations on salaries and hiring practices. On the advantage side is that we have the University of Texas nearby, we have Fort Hood nearby, and we have some great partnerships with the Austin Independent School District as well as the Austin Community College, UT, St. Edward’s. So we’re really trying to leverage the current sources to really increase the amount of talent that is in Austin and will stay in Austin. Certainly, we’re the live music capital of the world, so we’re also trying to leverage that to bring more IT talent into town as well.

Sanjog Aul [00:08:07]:

The talent, the word talent has got, of course, three aspects to it. You’ve got skills, you’ve got competence, and also the mindset or those inherent traits which make a talent relevant to an organization and or productive or more of a liability. So now let’s talk about since we basically set the foundation of what the challenges are. Assuming a newer breed of talent that we are inheriting now coming from colleges or even people who are in the workforce today, but they’ve just started working in the last 5 or 7 years. Phil, when you look at that breed of talent, this next generation that we are talking about, what are some of the things which pop out?

Philip Stevens [00:08:53]:

Well, I think on the one hand, they have a tremendous amount of enthusiasm. They’ve got strong knowledge in many of the base skills that apply in technology. And so we’ve got a fantastic human expertise foundation, but there are other things that they need to learn over time. One of those is our business. We are a retailer and while retail is in essence simple, there is a lot of complexity when you get into it. And so we present to these folks the opportunity to learn a lot of business skill. I think then there are issues of scale. We are about an $8,000,000,000 retailer and things that might work at a much smaller scale just don’t operate when you’ve got 3,000 locations around the world and $8,000,000,000 in scale to support. And so those are some of the things that folks joining the exchange will get

Sanjog Aul [00:09:56]:

the opportunity to learn. Now if you have those type of talent, they are coming out and we are dealing with that next generation. Terry coming to you, what do you think is so-called a boot camp they have to go through for them to be ready? Or would you say over a period of time knowing that you have this new breed of talent coming in the next generation, you would slowly but surely start morphing your organization to make sure you are not fitting a square peg in a round hole? Because they’re the future leaders, but you have to pave the path.

Teri Pennington [00:10:29]:

I think both Phil and I have some advantages with that next generation in that they are so enthusiastic and they are kind of looking for a mission. And I think both of our organizations kind of have a mission. And I think one of the things that we need to do is to really tap into that enthusiasm and that desire to learn the business and show how working for the City of Austin, you are helping citizens every day. You can just drive around town and see the effects of your work. And not everybody has that advantage. And I think one of the challenges that the city is going to have is we’re under municipal civil service, so we have some rules around the way we manage staff that we have to make sure that we are in alignment with. But with that, we really need to make sure that we can be flexible. And I think, again, with Phil, we have the opportunity to have some amazing technology that you will not get access to in a lot of different places. And that’s another advantage that we both share where you’re just gonna get some funky stuff and it’s cool. And we can give you access to that. And I think it’s gonna help both our organizations long term.

Sanjog Aul [00:11:52]:

Now you did say that it is funky and cool stuff. So that’s great, what I call a recruitment strategy. But when they do come in, does that funky and cool deliver to the business demands?

Teri Pennington [00:12:05]:

Yes. Yes, it does. I think the City of Austin has a mantra of keep Austin weird and I think every city department embraces it. So we have some very unusual requests on how to satisfy citizen demands, and I think we really try to live up to that.

Sanjog Aul [00:12:26]:

And, Phil, in your world, of course, it’s a serious business. Right? So it’s a retail, but it is a form of, yeah. It’s a retail store of sorts, for your people who are serving the country. Now if you bring the new breed and next generation, you try to make things cool and funky, do you think that would fly with the type of regimented approach you may be continuing to date in order to deliver to the demanding customer you have?

Philip Stevens [00:12:59]:

That’s a really interesting question and the answer is yes. On the one hand, we absolutely do come with, there’s no good way to say it, so I’ll just say baggage that comes with being part of the government, that comes with being a part of the Department of Defense. So we are in some ways hierarchical, that’s true. We’ve been in business for 120 years. So there’s history and tradition. And at the very same time, we hired our first civilian director in that 120 year history a few years ago. The company is anxious for a change. Our Board of Directors, the military members who guide our operation, they are excited for change. And frankly, we all accept and are excited about the fact that our customers want us to change. We’re a retailer. We need to be the kind of omnichannel retailer that can compete with the best out there.

Sanjog Aul [00:13:53]:

Let’s take a quick break listeners. We’ll be right back and we should just talk about the goals and what we are trying to achieve and in that process, what all we are putting in place. So, yes, we spoke about something cool and funky, but now let’s talk about the overall development of an individual so that as they grow through the ranks, they establish themselves as professionals without losing their core DNA. But all along, our organizational goals are met as well besides their own personal goals. So how do you make that magic happen? What all is involved? Let’s explore that. Please stay tuned, listeners. We’ll be right back.

HP [00:14:38]:

HP is proud to sponsor this program. Find out how the HP as a service solution for SAP HANA can help you gain instant impactful business results without capital investment by logging on to hp.com. Transform information into intelligence and a competitive advantage with a full spectrum of SAP HANA products and services from HP, a global SAP hosting partner.

Bosch Software Innovations [00:15:08]:

Bosch Software Innovations is proud to sponsor this program. Visit www.bosch-si.com/connectedmanufacturing to find out how Bosch can help you improve your operational performance and become a manufacturing industry leader in a connected world. Change the way you predict, manage, and produce outcomes. Bosch Connected Manufacturing.

HP [00:15:40]:

HP is proud to sponsor this program. Tap into our expertise, innovation, and services to bring your most important workloads to the cloud. You are listening to CIO Talk Radio with Sanjog Aul. To learn more about the show, please visit www.ciotalkradio.com. If you have a question or comment, call toll free at +1 (866) 472-5790. That number again is +1 (866) 472-5790. Now back to the show. Here’s Sanjog Aul.

Sanjog Aul [00:16:25]:

Welcome back. So as an organization, of course, it’s our duty as leaders to make sure we handle the organizational goals, but an organization will not exist or thrive if the people working within are not meeting their own respective goals. So how do you make that magic happen with the org with the new next generation of talent who I’m not sure if you totally understand what their biases are, what their thought process is, and how is that changing. So maybe, Terry, starting with you, how do you understand them in the way what takes them off and or what triggers interest? Do you think we have clarity there?

Teri Pennington [00:17:02]:

I think spending time with your staff and understanding their goals and aspirations and what makes them tick, that really hasn’t changed. I think when you start having generational differences, you have to spend more time at it. And you have to be open to those possibilities. But they call it work because sometimes it’s just not fun. And there are things that have to get done and we have to make sure that we’re clear about those things. However, in most organizations, there’s an ability to tailor some of the work to the interests of whoever it is and to really look at their career path and really make sure that you’re supporting their career goals. Now, this doesn’t make their entire professional development our responsibility. They have a huge amount of that responsibility. But there’s a lot of things that we can do to support them. I know at the City of Austin we have a mentorship program that’s in the IT department, to help them understand the things that aren’t normally talked about when moving up through the ranks. We also at the city have a lot of leadership programs to really help city staff understand what the city does because in general, it’s a lot different than maybe a state organization, a federal organization, or the private sector. So there’s a lot of training. The city really spends a lot of time on retraining and understanding where the employees are going. It’s very important to us to be a good employer. It is something that all management talks about. And I know that’s something that we take very seriously in the IT department as well.

Sanjog Aul [00:18:48]:

So, Phil, what Terry mentioned was, of course, with your focus on the training and development, we are able to develop them or at least make them a better fit for what the organization wants. Now all along, the whole discussion on this next generation is because it seems like it’s a different DNA. So if we understand that DNA and then we don’t take that broad-stroked training and development, then that would perhaps serve them better. So do you think we have a better clarity? If I were to ask you, tell me three things which you feel you would do differently for this next generation of talent versus what you’ve been doing for the rest of them. What would those be?

Philip Stevens [00:19:33]:

I think that is a great question. First, I’ll say I agree completely with Terry’s point that you’ve got to know the individuals and tailor the approach to the individual. I think an example of something that folks are more comfortable with today than perhaps in the past is social sharing of information. They want to interact. They want to have a dialogue about it sometimes online, sometimes in either corporate or external social media. So that I would say is a difference. Another difference, I would say while no one really, at least in our organization, seems to enjoy classroom training, there does seem to be a different learning style between some folks from prior generations and the folks joining the workforce today. For example, they seem to more appreciate online learning whereas some other folks prefer a more one-on-one approach. So that I would say is another difference. And then this is generational though I think some of the folks coming into the workforce today may grow into a different approach and that is many of our more senior employees their financial plan is retirement. And as a government organization that’s part of the design of the structure whereas for young folks today they’re just not ready to think about retirement. And so their motivations have got to be different.

Sanjog Aul [00:21:05]:

When you look at

Teri Pennington [00:21:07]:

At the City, we have a really hard time getting people to that 5 year mark, which is when you get vested. After that, we have something like a 99% rate of keeping an employee, but it’s that first 5 years and how to get them to that point, how to keep them interested. And I know that’s a big challenge the city has.

Sanjog Aul [00:21:28]:

And so, now, this is very interesting. Think about us as, say, Gen Xers or maybe Gen Y. But now the newer breed doesn’t see longevity in a given company as a way to grow themselves. They may stick around, but that’s not a big deal for them. Whereas we are saying our strategies are going to be to see how we can keep that talent. So if you can keep them for 2 years, but they are at the the best of what they can be, that’s an ROI on the investment. So is that a bad thing for us to start opening up and say, okay. Get someone. Work with them to get them aligned for a bit, and then allow them to create value for the organization. And if they want to leave after 2 to 3 years, it is not a black mark on them or on us. It is just that they don’t they want change. They want change quicker. So, Phil, do you think there’s a problem with that newer mindset or if you were to go that route?

Philip Stevens [00:22:31]:

Well, I think you’re definitely right. That’s typical. And I think that’s been true for a while. Folks earlier in their career are more dynamic in their planning and less focused on the long term. And so I don’t know if it’s a problem, but it’s a reality. And I think we need to design for it. One way, for example, I mentioned that we’ve designed for that is by creating a combination of experts in a given business area, experts in a given system and then folks with general technical expertise. And so folks earlier in their career are going to tend to be those folks expert in a particular technology that get moved from one system to another. And so we can tolerate more turnover in that pool of experts than we can in the system experts, if that made sense.

Sanjog Aul [00:23:25]:

Sure. Now, Terry, would you agree that most of the so-called skill based or specific technology or technical skill based resources, they can be either identified from outside or the world is moving towards moving such work towards the lowest cost possible. And that could very well mean that work may not get done in-house. And more and more organizations are saying, if we were to sustain and have some meaningful work available for people and also be able to get talent for it, then we find people who have a more of a business mindset who happen to learn technology to deliver value. And do you see that flavor of talent in this new generation so that they would actually even want to come or they just say, I want to sit in my room and code, but then they are irrelevant in many organizations. And let’s take City of Austin, but even outside in the bigger world. That’s what’s happening. That’s the ecosystem we have.

Teri Pennington [00:24:25]:

Well, I kinda see that we’re moving towards kind of four different talent areas where you have managed services or infrastructure as a service where these are things that just have to get done. And you can easily contract for that. You can easily monitor that contract. You know, these are upgrades on routers and upgrades on servers and whatnot. These are normal kinds of things that have to get done. The second is that sheer talent in a particular area. I think it’s very difficult for especially a government to be able to afford that kind of specialized talent. So we’re going to have to use contracts for that and get statements of work and utilize our vendors for those types of talent. I think that the other thing you were talking about is more that business mindset. Who’s going to be monitoring these contracts? They have to understand technology, but they also have to understand that business. They have to be able to enable that business. So that’s more of the Business Relationship Manager type of a role. And then there’s this emergency support. You know, the city is constantly reacting to football games and big storms. We need people who can turn on a dime and get things done, and that’s not something you easily contract for. Those, I think, are going to be the roles for the internal staff long term. They need to be agile. They need to be able to turn on a dime and solve the problem at hand because public safety is at risk. So, I mean, I think we’ve got those kind of four big roles kind of moving towards that future, and we’re really trying to tailor and work with the current staff into those roles.

Sanjog Aul [00:26:14]:

That’s great, Terry. So with those four roles defined, Phil, coming back to you, if you had to map the next generation of talent that we are seeing or even the newer breed that you may be hiring right now, where do you think they would rise and shine more than the others so that you understand what type of roles if provided or been assigned to these individuals who are in this next generation? That would be a great learning platform because they’re not going to always remain there. They have to grow but that’s a great starting point for them given their DNA.

Philip Stevens [00:26:48]:

Right. I would hate the thought that a person would either get pigeonholed and not have a choice or make a choice and then be stuck. And so I would love to be able to say that employees could come in in any one of those four talent areas that Terry talked about and have a career. Now if a person is looking strictly at marketability, then I think focusing on a particular technology and being a technology expert as opposed to, for example, a retail business systems expert, I think that probably makes more sense for them and that should be their choice. That’s their door in. But we need folks with all sorts of skill sets and I think we should offer folks the chance to grow. Just because you come in as a technical expert doesn’t mean you shouldn’t become a retail systems expert and ultimately perhaps even a line of business manager. And I should compliment the organization and say, I think we do a fantastic job of moving folks around the company from IT to merchandising, from logistics to IT. And so we allow folks to move and grow. And I think that’s a real positive statement about the team and the company.

Sanjog Aul [00:28:04]:

Now when we talk about the gaps in people’s readiness, if you will. So if you are inducting someone in, I’m sure you’re going to provide them the required amount of training. But then at the same time, when I end up as, and I’m sure you would be doing too, talk to a few leaders, they would just roll their eyes saying, oh my god. This is a different beast altogether. And that could be more because they are fitting in with the rest of the world. But, truly, if you were to take an objective view, not because you have always done it that way, but an objective view, where would you say they could be trained better or differently in order for them to be ready for their own journey, Terry?

Teri Pennington [00:28:50]:

Well, I think one of the things I’ve been really impressed with this next generation goes back to that mission. I want to be valuable. I want to see my work do something real. And I think that emergency support plays on their ability to learn quickly, to be able to go from one project immediately to another project, and it also goes to that immediate value proposition. You can see the people that you’re helping. You can help them get what they need and move on to a more productive life. So I think that emergency support is really kind of handy there. But I also can see them moving really into any one of these. And like what Phil said, maybe you start out with a specific talent in one area and then you start to move into more of a business setting or vice versa. I see no limits on this generation. So in a way, what

Bosch Software Innovations [00:29:54]:

We are discussing here

Sanjog Aul [00:29:54]:

could very well be our own paranoia, reservation on how this breed is different than us, the generation that’s different than us, just because they think differently, the way they talk, and are remote — that’s different. That’s a cause of concern because it’s a change. Is that what you would say, Terry?

Teri Pennington [00:30:16]:

Well, I guess I just hate putting limits on really any generation. I think people are amazing. They just, in my view, maybe I’m just a glass half full kind of person, but when you have somebody who really wants to contribute, there’s just so many ways to do that. And we need the talent. And I think it’s up to us in organizations to figure out how to get the best out of people so that we can bring that value back to our citizens, back to our customers.

Sanjog Aul [00:30:50]:

Let’s take a quick break, listeners. We’ll be back. And now let’s look at those specific traits, and we are definitely working with the right mindset that we want to help them harness their potential to the fullest. Some of the key areas, they are ambitious, yet they want work-life balance. They learn quickly and want independence, yet they are, in many cases, needing more supervision. So if there are some different ways of thinking and there are some conflicting personality styles and it could be an opportunity versus being seen as a challenge. So how do we go about taking those newer flavors of characteristics that you’re finding in the next generation and make the most of them? What are the possibilities? Please stay tuned listeners. We’ll be right

HP [00:31:43]:

back. HP is proud to sponsor this program. Tap into our expertise, innovation, and services to bring your most important workloads to the cloud.

Bosch Software Innovations [00:31:56]:

Bosch Software Innovations is proud to sponsor this program. Visit www.bosch-si.com/connectedmanufacturing to find out how Bosch can help you improve your operational performance and become a manufacturing industry leader in a connected world. Change the way you predict, manage, and produce outcomes. Bosch connected manufacturing.

HP [00:32:27]:

HP is proud to sponsor this program. Find out how the HP as a service solution for SAP HANA can help you gain instant impactful business results without capital investment by logging on to hp.com. Transform information into intelligence and a competitive advantage with a full spectrum of SAP HANA products and services from HP, a global SAP hosting partner. You are listening to CIO Talk Radio with Sanjog Aul. To learn more about the show, please visit www.ciotalkradio.com. If you have a question or comment, call toll free at +1 (866) 472-5790. That number again is +1 (866) 472-5790. Now back to the show. Here’s Sanjog Aul.

Sanjog Aul [00:33:30]:

So they are ambitious, and, Phil, this is for you. And they, of course, are also looking for work-life balance, but not a bad thing. They learn quickly, very independent. At the same time, they have been seen to require more supervision. Now they have these challenges. At the same time, they have strengths. What we are to do, I would almost wear the hat of a parent to see what we can do to help them maximize their own potential even though whatever characteristics they may possess. And this is coming out of statistics, some research, etcetera, these differences.

Philip Stevens [00:34:14]:

Right. So I think something Terry has been saying is fantastic, and that is a focus on mission. I’ll take a spin-off of that and say, I think one of the most important platforms that a leader can set is a vision, an exciting big vision. And if folks see that exciting big vision and if they understand the general role they play, then they can create exciting opportunities within that for their own growth potential and their managers and supervisors can help them to achieve that. So from a senior leadership perspective, I think that’s the first and most important thing we can do. The next thing I would add to that is encouraging folks to think beyond their particular component to the entire solution end-to-end and especially — and we’re a retailer, so I’ll say especially out there on the website or on the sales floor — to think about it, to solve for it, to own it. And that really opens up the creative opportunity and the growth opportunity for the individuals within the corporate mission. So those are a few of the things I think we as leaders can do.

Sanjog Aul [00:35:35]:

And so to ensure what you’re essentially saying is that if you lay out the mission, then they will just follow as the Pied Piper?

Philip Stevens [00:35:44]:

No, I would say it differently. I would say if folks, as Terry said, really want to be a part of something. They want to be a part of something important and something successful. And so if we can put out the broad outlines that leaves them significant room to create and innovate for any particular part of that, but with an understanding and a responsibility and a sense of ownership for the overall results. So I just would be a little anxious about Pied Piper. I don’t want simply followers. I want folks who are growing individually and on the path to become future leaders.

Sanjog Aul [00:36:25]:

Now, Terry, when we speak about this mission and laying this out, do you think as a leader, do you think any differently when you’re thinking of leading this new generation and or preparing them for the future versus the other people who you’ve been working with all along?

Teri Pennington [00:36:41]:

Well, I think everybody has different strengths and weaknesses.

Sanjog Aul [00:36:45]:

And I

Teri Pennington [00:36:45]:

think the best thing we can do for everyone is make sure that people understand what the goal is, what needs to be done. I’m going to reiterate what Philip said here, that it doesn’t have to be done the same way. It really doesn’t. As long as we’re getting to the same place that we need to, the citizens of Austin still need to get permits and they still need to drive into work and not sit in traffic. So if one understands those big goals, it is perfectly fine to find different ways of solving that problem, and I’m good with that. I think where they come in the organization, everybody brings a different skill set. There’s a lot of things that this generation does with mobility that, say, the baby boomers wouldn’t even think of. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But that combination of talents is where you really get that innovation. It has to be sustainable. I’ll go back to, again, what Phil said about there’s a scope issue going on here. Certainly, with his organization and with mine, I’m not talking about 5 different people here. We’re talking about 1,000,000 people. So you have to be able to scale. And you get that innovative idea plus somebody who has more experience may be able to help with the scaling piece. So I think there’s strengths and weaknesses all over the organization, and it’s up to us really to be able to bring them together and find that path forward.

Sanjog Aul [00:38:23]:

Bimodal is a term that you use, Phil, in the beginning. And that on one hand means predictability, on other hand means innovation. In the way predictability will have to be maintained even going forward and innovation has to be brought about, do you think that is to change or the weight has to be handled and keeping in mind that this new generation will be the one handling it? What would be your, I would not call it a hunch, but more, as a clear one, what do you see happening new and different in that regard when somebody has to run a bimodal IT and new people are doing it?

Philip Stevens [00:39:01]:

Right. I think it’s an exciting slant to an important question. Becoming bimodal, I will speak for a lot of my friends and peers in the retail industry. A lot of us are coming to grips with this issue of bimodal IT. We know how to run projects really well in a somewhat mechanical and predictable way. What we’ve all been a little less good at and what I think we’re all as an industry getting better at, retail technologists is moving with a more agile approach, both agile trademark and agile in the general sense. So I think we’re coming along there. So your slant to the question, what does that mean to folks entering the workforce today? Well, I think a lot of them enjoy the idea of being in the fast moving part of the company and that’s great. I do too. But I think there is an importance to seeing the operational side of the business that needs to be run a bit more mechanically and predictably. I think there is an importance to being in large-scale enterprise programs. We’re replacing four collections systems with a single new system. You need to run that in a very program driven, project driven, predictable way. And I think there’s value to experiencing that. And so I would encourage folks entering the technology career field today to sure be a part of this agile development effort for a 6-month deployment of important new features to the website, but then also look for your next opportunity to be part of this enterprise project deployment, so you can see large scale project management. And then at your next project after that, look for the opportunity to transition into large scale operations. That’s the way to prepare yourself for lots of possible futures and for growth.

Teri Pennington [00:41:06]:

And if I can add something to that, I completely agree with that approach. Security is just so huge, and it’s not just done by security professionals anymore. I would also encourage some sort of education or taking the opportunity to learn about cybersecurity in whatever place you are, whether it’s deploying a new system or in operational support and continuity, that having those security credentials and experience is just essential going forward.

Sanjog Aul [00:41:38]:

Now we did talk about the cool and funky. Remember, Terry, in the beginning? If the operational side or the things which are to maintain a predictable operation is not cool and funky, what would be your pitch to this new generation to take that on? Because there will be reluctance. Right? Even I would not wanna go there if given a choice.

Teri Pennington [00:42:02]:

Well, I think there’s some opportunity. So let’s just say what we’re talking about. You’re talking about, like, a help desk. You’re talking about desktop support or something like that. Is that correct?

Sanjog Aul [00:42:13]:

Suppose you have to run an operation in your financial services firm and you got a data center which simply cannot go down. So you’re not automating anything, but you are making sure the IT should keep the business humming. That humming part is where you do not have cool and funky things happening because you’re not changing. You’re maintaining stability. And that is not always the best insight.

Teri Pennington [00:42:37]:

Is that even a data center can’t stay stagnant. I think right now, you’re rebuilding your data center every 3 years, and you’re doing it piece by piece, and you have to make sure that you have that redundancy in there so that you don’t have that downtime. And there’s a lot of innovative ways to do that. So I guess I don’t agree that all operations is devoid of innovation. There’s ways to take what you’re currently doing and really look at it from a different angle and see, okay, what can I do here to really take this to the next level? Being stagnant in any situation is just not appropriate anymore. You just can’t maintain the business that way. So you do have to keep pushing that boundary in every section. Certainly in projects, but also in keeping everything running and humming. How are you gonna upgrade to the next version? How are you going to make the patches? What desktop software is going to be appropriate? What about the mobile software? How does that integrate? So there’s just really a lot of opportunity to really get those puzzles out there and get that next generation thinking about those puzzles.

Sanjog Aul [00:43:54]:

Disaster recovery, business continuity, making sure that you are able to very quickly react to these situations so that business does not suffer. Phil, if you look at this next generation and their traits and the way of thinking, how would you prepare them for such acts or it could be an act of God or natural or manmade disaster, but they have to still have that mindset?

Philip Stevens [00:44:24]:

Yeah. That’s another fantastic question. I think one of the ways to engage and excite them exactly as Terry just said, cloud is an important and good buzzword to be talking about these days. Virtualization, the technology, is a number of years old now, but it is still in many ways impacting the mainstream IT departments. And those technologies are exciting and new and they’re also very, very relevant to disaster recovery and business continuity. And so what I would tell young folks today, there are important challenges, literally business critical challenges such as business continuity and disaster recovery that can be addressed through exciting new technologies including, for example, virtualization and cloud. And so I would encourage them to be engaged as technical experts in those subject areas while taking that opportunity to work on, for example, business continuity to learn the business because the person leading that business continuity effort needs to understand what business it is that needs to be continued and what the most important parts of it are to focus on. And if I can only restore one thing first,

Sanjog Aul [00:45:45]:

what is it that

Philip Stevens [00:45:45]:

I should restore first? And so that I think would be an example of a great project for a technologist, say a virtualization expert, to use as a way to join the team and then learn about the entire corporation and all the systems it takes to run it.

Sanjog Aul [00:46:02]:

Would they have any concerns given where they come from not just because they have less experience but the type of work it is?

Philip Stevens [00:46:12]:

I do think, again, the leadership role in something like a business continuity effort is probably going to be with someone who knows a lot about the business that is being recovered or continued. And so I do think the role of a person earlier in their career is going to be a bit different on this team, but it doesn’t make it any less important and it doesn’t, frankly, it means it’s an even bigger growth opportunity.

Sanjog Aul [00:46:42]:

Let’s take a quick break, listeners. We’ll be right back. Talk about leadership. Now leadership, two flavors. One is what type of leader would they be willing to follow given their own preferences and who do they look up to or what type of individual they would like to look up to? Another is that what would it take for them to go on that leadership path because they are the future leaders. What are we going to do in terms of skill development and mindset development so that they are able to take the baton and move the world forward? Please stay tuned, listeners.

Bosch Software Innovations [00:47:16]:

We’ll be right back. Bosch Software Innovations is proud to sponsor this program. Visit www.bosch-si.com/connectedmanufacturing to find out how Bosch can help you improve your operational performance and become a manufacturing industry leader in a connected world. Change the way you predict, manage, and produce outcomes. Bosch connected manufacturing.

HP [00:47:53]:

HP is proud to sponsor this program. Tap into our expertise, innovation, and services to bring your most important workloads to the cloud. HP is proud to sponsor this program. Find out how the HP as a service solution for SAP HANA can help you gain instant impactful business results without capital investment by logging on to hp.com. Transform information into intelligence and a competitive advantage with a full spectrum of SAP HANA products and services from HP, a global SAP hosting partner. You are listening to CIO Talk Radio with Sanjog Aul. To learn more about the show, please visit www.ciotalkradio.com. If you have a question or comment, call toll free at +1 (866) 472-5790. That number again is +1 (866) 472-5790. Now back to the show. Here’s Sanjog Aul. Welcome

Sanjog Aul [00:49:09]:

back. So, a leader for the future is this new generation. But before they become, they have to also be shown a role model, and those leaders should be or would be us. So do we need to change our thinking not just to accommodate them, but to be able to set up a right type of role model? And if you go back and talk to them, who all are they ready to be looking up to? Phil.

Philip Stevens [00:49:41]:

So one thing and this is perhaps a slightly different answer than some folks might have expected. I think the truth is people like to win. And who do they look up to? We all, including young people, tend to look up to winners. And so the first thing in order to get folks to follow you is to show them that you’ve got a plan for the team including them to win and then to let them know that over time the business is seeing progress because of their efforts. I think leaders have a vision that people can relate to and a vision that is challenging, so that they feel like if they can accomplish this they will have done something meaningful and they’ll have contributed to something important. And I think last of all, well, it’s certainly not last, but I’ll say my final point for now would be, it’s very important that folks — you may be demanding, you may be tough — but ultimately you’ve got to be fair, trustworthy and at the end of the day, have your team’s back when they try things and perhaps sometimes make mistakes.

Sanjog Aul [00:51:02]:

Terry, what is your take on this?

Teri Pennington [00:51:05]:

I certainly agree with that. It’s great to have — you have to celebrate those wins so that everybody can see that they’re providing that value. And I think that that’s very important in the organization overall. I think the one thing I’ll add to what Phil said, and I think he probably meant this, is to be human. I think a lot of times there’s, okay, these are the rules, and we’re not going to go around those rules. And it’s just like, okay, somebody had a death in the family or somebody had something go wrong or whatnot. It’s important to also be human and be seen being human. And that goes back to the work-life balance. If you’re hoping to have a work-life balance for your staff and then you spend 80 hours a week at the office, clearly that’s not going to happen. They’re not seeing that be successful. But I think your other question was how do we prepare them to be that next generation of leaders? And, certainly, they’re good at IT. They’re good at either programming or infrastructure or something. But I think what we really need to make sure that we do is teach them how to run the business. Now, they may decide to run it differently when they’re a leader, but there’s a lot of things about how to get funding, how to react to an emergency situation, how to do the professional communication, talk to the media. I mean, there’s all of those pieces of running a business that are not obvious to your standard IT professional. And I think those are the pieces that we need to bring to the table and make sure they understand what those are. Because if they understand the goals and they understand where they’re at, they’ll be able to close the gap. They won’t need us for that.

Sanjog Aul [00:52:56]:

Phil, one last 30-second pointer that you can give to other leaders who may be in similar shoes as you, and they may be dealing with this newer generation. What would be your advice to them in terms of what to watch out for versus what to do more?

Philip Stevens [00:53:15]:

Yeah. I would say, know the team, know your business. How do you do that? You do that by engaging deeper into your own team. When you’re brainstorming, when you’re planning, don’t just work with your direct reports, reach deeper into the team. It may work for a given company or it may not, but you could consider for some ideas, some projects, crowdsource it among the organization, see where the good ideas come from and then go with those. And then the exact same sorts of efforts with your business peers across the organization.

Sanjog Aul [00:53:48]:

Terry, what should the rest of the world watch out for when they are dealing with next generation of talent so that they actually become successful together?

Teri Pennington [00:53:58]:

I think that people really need to be conscious of being flexible, that everybody has a different take on things. It’s not wrong. It’s just different. And there’s many ways up the mountain. And two, just relax a little bit.

Sanjog Aul [00:54:15]:

On behalf of the show and our listeners, I’d really like to thank you both, Terry and Phil, for sharing your thoughts on how to lead this next generation of talent.

Philip Stevens [00:54:24]:

It was a pleasure.

Teri Pennington [00:54:25]:

Well, thank you very much.

Sanjog Aul [00:54:27]:

Thank you so much. Listeners, please like us on Facebook, search for CIO Talk Radio. Be sure to follow us on Twitter and sign up for our newsletter. Thank you again for listening to CIO Talk Radio. This is Sanjog Aul, your talk show host. And till next week, take care and God bless.