Change is always hard. How do you move from pure luck at implementing a successful change to ensured change success? How do you make a successful change repeatable? We know the milestones: vision, the building of momentum as the change is implemented, eventual sustainability, and finally the desired results!  But what does it really take to successfully steer your organization to a successful change though these milestones, and then reliably repeat the process again and again, as needed, within the organization and beyond to other organizations?
Contributors

• • Stephen J. Bozzo, SVP and Chief Information Officer, 1-800-FLOWERS.COM
  • Larry Bonfante, Chief Information Officer, Author, the United States Tennis Association
  • Harish Ramani, SVP and Global Chief Information Officer, Constellation Brands

Transcript

Sanjog Aul [00:00:00]:
Good morning and welcome to CIO Talk Radio. To learn more about the show, please visit www.ciotalkradio.com. Today’s topic Is From Vision To Fruition, What’s It Take To Implement Change? And our guests for today’s show are Steve Obozo, who’s a Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer with 1-800-Flowers.com Good morning, Steve. How are you?

Stephen Bozzo [00:00:23]:
Good morning, Sanjog. How are you?

Sanjog Aul [00:00:25]:
I am just doing fine. Life is beautiful and how is it treating you?

Stephen Bozzo [00:00:31]:
Oh, it’s fantastic. A beautiful day here in New York and we’re loving it.

Sanjog Aul [00:00:35]:
Great. Now we also have Harish Ramani who is the Senior Vice President and Global Chief Information Officer for Constellation Brands. Morning, Harish.

Harish Ramani [00:00:44]:
Good morning, Sanjog. How are you?

Sanjog Aul [00:00:46]:
I am just doing fine and so life is any different and better for you? No.

Harish Ramani [00:00:51]:
Wonderful. We’re in upstate New York and we’ve had a couple of weeks of wonderful sunshine. So no complaints on our end.

Sanjog Aul [00:00:58]:
So great. So as you go about enjoying your weather and the games of golf that you play, when it comes to the real business, how’s business treating you guys? Steve, what’s going on?

Stephen Bozzo [00:01:12]:
Well, we’re just ending our fiscal year. We ended our fiscal year July 3rd actually, so just a few days ago. And we’re having an excellent year. We’re very pleased. Strong holidays and very strong sales, strong average order value. So we’re thrilled. We’re absolutely thrilled.

Sanjog Aul [00:01:29]:
Nice. So Harish, when you look at your respective, your company in particular, do you think the life there or the way the economy has changed? I mean, of course there were downturn and now there’s uptick a little bit. Did it make much of a difference?

Harish Ramani [00:01:45]:
I mean what they say about the alcohol business, when times are good, people drink and times are bad, people still drink. So our higher end business, yeah, we saw a little, little downtick but our core business, we did quite well and continue to do well.

Sanjog Aul [00:01:59]:
So. Nice. So the topic that we picked today from vision to fruition and what should take to implement change. The reason we wanted to discuss this is we have tried to, focus on change management related issues and always the answer comes to us. It depends and where the different factors for different people of course make a difference in the way they’re able to bring about change. So yes, that answer is non committal. It depends. However, could there be some predictability that can be injected into it in terms of whether the processes or the way you use a type of leadership, et cetera in order to make sure that change is not by luck, it’s actually successfully delivered by design.

Sanjog Aul [00:02:48]:
So, Steve, if you were to look in your, you know, current stint that you have with 1-800-Flowers.com and also wherever else you have worked or you’ve seen other people work and have successfully brought about change.

Stephen Bozzo [00:03:01]:
Do you see a pattern for a successful project implementation in Sanjog?

Sanjog Aul [00:03:05]:
Yes.

Stephen Bozzo [00:03:06]:
Yeah, oh definitely. I definitely see a pattern. There are some key ingredients we believe that are necessary for any successful change and it’s much less about luck and much, much more about rigor and operational integrity and really just paying attention to details more than anything else. Certainly, having said that, no project is perfect and there are always surprises and sometimes luck can work in your favor, but it’s not something that you can rely upon, obviously we live in such a fast paced world. Our chairman likes to say that we as an enterprise have to have a tolerance for ambiguity. So things are going to happen, there’s no question about it. You need to be prepared for that.

Stephen Bozzo [00:03:47]:
So first and foremost, to manage successful change, we believe you need to have a plan, a very detailed plan, and you need to allow for almost every potential eventuality. I think of a data center move that we did recently. We actually, because of a difficult economy, we decided to leave our current hosting site where we had close to 800 servers and two locations, actually three, we had that down to two, and relocate them into a brand new data center. And we had to do that over the course of about two weeks without.

Stephen Bozzo [00:04:20]:
So that’s one good example where we had to do a fairly rapid change. But in order to do that successfully, and it was very successful, we had to plan every single detail and allow for a lot of eventualities that were technically unexpected, like equipment failing. So we made sure that we had vendors there prepared to repair the equipment in the event of a failure, things like that, and it turned out that we were very successful. Tanjoga as an example with that project, allowing for eventualities that were not necessarily anticipated and having a very detailed plan for everything that we wanted to accomplish.

Sanjog Aul [00:04:56]:
Now what Steve just discussed was perhaps it scoped out change that we’re talking about. Harish, if you were to say I want to change something which is not as easy to be scoped out, but it is perhaps more holistic, more eyed type of change, how has that been in terms of experience for you and or anyone else has, whosoever you’ve seen working on such a change management issue and successfully delivering. What have you seen as a pattern, you know, surfacing?

Harish Ramani [00:05:29]:
Well, there’s a great article and this is probably back back in 2010, in early 2000, 2002, 2003 article was Nestle’s ERP Odyssey. I don’t know if any, if anybody of you had a chance to read that. And it really talked about their SAP implementation that they did. This is back when they were getting ready. They started in June 2000 trying to get ready for the Y2K and it really talks about the challenges and the struggles with that project. I learned a lot from that article and the CIO in that article really kind of talked through the, that a success is not by chance, it’s really by detail planning, Change management is critical.

Harish Ramani [00:06:05]:
I mean there were really and similar to what we were doing going to a more centralized one single process throughout the enterprise but bringing people along. It doesn’t happen by chance. You have to really change management is so critical especially in big ERP type of implementations and we’re going through that ourselves. We put a lot of focus on change management, put a lot of focus on communication and bringing people along first, and that ARCA really and she talks about difference between an implementation versus an installation. So if you just install a software, it’s just software but if you really want to do an implementation, we really have to look at through, really look at through the lens of change management first.

Sanjog Aul [00:06:45]:
So with respect to the changes that you brought about, do you think there was something that while we can say we designed it well or we planned it properly and we executed it well, but I think if you were to go back to any of the leaders who we discuss with, they will all say that we of course tried our best, but still it did not happen. So would you say there were certain not as obvious things that they missed out on?

Harish Ramani [00:07:14]:
I think again back to what the deep thing you have to have start with a really detailed plan. If things, in a project and a multi year project that, that we’ve gone through. You go through peaks and valleys and issues that, that come up that you know, you didn’t necessarily think about but it’s how you manage through those and how you get the people around you the truth together to solve to those problems. There’s a, I don’t think there’s a, a simple answer to say well this or you know, you could point to certain things that went wrong. But I think Overall, I think it’s really detailed planning and then execution to that plan and if the failure happens, it because of its lack of execution most times.

Sanjog Aul [00:07:51]:
Now, how much do you think Steve is the leader sitting at the top can really control execution side?

Stephen Bozzo [00:07:59]:
I think the leader is key in permeating a mindset of getting the job done properly and sticking to the plan and making sure that everybody is motivated throughout the process because in the long haul project obviously it’s very easy to lose motivation. So it’s important that the leader continues to emphasize the sense of urgency on any given project to make sure that we all stay focused, we meet our deliverables both in terms of time quality and cost

Harish Ramani [00:08:29]:
and I think also what I would add to that is to do especially long term projects, three year plus projects, to celebrate the successes along the way.

Stephen Bozzo [00:08:37]:
Absolutely.

Harish Ramani [00:08:38]:
To have milestones and celebrate those successes and recognize individuals for the effort and work they’re putting in on both on the IT technical side and also on the business side because we’re going through a major transformation of, you know, from a very decentralized organization to a very centralized, process driven organization. One common process across our businesses, wine and spirits and beer. So when you talk about changing processes, you’re really talking about changing the way people do things and the way people work and that you’re challenging their principles, their belief and the way that they’ve done things for many years. So really change management is really critical in bringing folks around and also celebrating successes. I think it’s critical in long term project.

Sanjog Aul [00:09:23]:
Now, is it like, when I teach my 6 year old daughter how to ride a bike, I hold her seat for a little bit till the time she gets comfortable with it. Now if you take that example into this change management situation, do you think we cannot, I mean the fact remains is we cannot just lay out the processes and the steps and expect people to really run with them and expect them to be successful in the first shot or even the second or third iteration. So do you think holding that seat of that bicycle till the time they are, you know, ready for going out by themselves is the type of hand holding that is needed in an organization to bring about a cultural change?

Harish Ramani [00:10:07]:
Yeah, I think that the analogy of your seat holding would be, is what I think about is very detailed and rigorous training. Investing a lot of time and training, developing a really thorough training plan and executing against that training plan. So that I would use your analogy of holding the seat as having a very solid training plan in place and executing against that to make sure all the tools and processes develop for the business people using the new systems to be successful.

Sanjog Aul [00:10:35]:
All right, so we just have a new guest who has joined us, Larry Bonafonte, who’s the CIO with the United States Tennis association and is also an accomplished author. Good morning, Larry.

Sanjog Aul [00:10:46]:
Yeah, Larry, can you hear us?

Larry Bonfante [00:10:47]:
Yeah, can hear you fine.

Sanjog Aul [00:10:49]:
Yes. Great. So I just wanted to ask you one quick question before we go to the break is that we basically started with the whole idea of how people are seeing a pattern in the way successful change management is brought about. So have you seen any patterns?

Larry Bonfante [00:11:03]:
I think there are common organizations that do change management successfully. I also think you need to be flexible to deal with some of the nuances of the change in the organization itself. I don’t know if I call them patterns, but there are certain commonalities that I’ve seen. The way you work with your team, the way you communicate change and the way you engage your team in the change. But I don’t know if I would call them commonalities.

Sanjog Aul [00:11:27]:
All right, so let’s take a quick break. Let us come back and see if it which has always been seen as an enabler should be seen as a leader or protagonist in the change management or they should kind of keep their seats intact or their role intact in terms of always being enabling a business change that is to be brought about. Please stay tuned. We’ll be right back.

Sanjog Aul [00:14:55]:
Welcome back. So, Harish, let’s start with you. So if you were to look at IT, and of course we have always tried to take pride in being a good enabler, but when it comes to bringing about change, and yes, you can bring about change in your respective organization, you could lead it but for the most part, the changes are to be brought out in a holistic manner, an organization wide scale and scope. Would you still think IT would get an opportunity or would IT want to take a lead role in it?

Harish Ramani [00:15:25]:
I think IT could take a lead role in it. We got to start thinking of ourselves as business people and not just IT people, IT is what we do. That’s where our disciplines, our training are but at the end of the day, for me and for my staff, my organization, we’re business people first. So for us to be accepted and be incredible business people, we need to bring forward ideas and concepts that we see, you know, the views from an IT perspective. We get a broad umbrella picture of the enterprise which, if you’re in a functional area like finance or HR you don’t necessarily get that broad umbrella view of the enterprise. We have that opportunity and I think an obligation to take business ideas back to the business to help them use technology, enable success for them.

Sanjog Aul [00:16:08]:
All right, so, so Larry, the question for you, what do you think is the best way you feel it could really play a lead role without making anybody else feel in the business that they are taking over because nobody likes to be taken over and or be ruled in or be managed by it because they think that these guys are supposed to be invisible and or do their thing but not try to be the boss.

Larry Bonfante [00:16:35]:
Sure, I’ve got a number of situations where people on my team are leading major programs here at USDA that absolutely have nothing to do with it whatsoever. But they’re being recognized as the leaders because of their program management expertise and their relationships within the business unit state support. So I think the thing is if you in it become part of the fabric of the business, you won’t be viewed separately as it taking over. You’ll be viewed as another member of the team who might have the skill set and the experience set to help lead change initiatives. And in that regard, you’re just viewed as another person who has the right expertise to help in that regard. So I think the thing is really becoming part of the fabric of the business that you’re not viewed separately and concretely as IT is coming in to take over.

Sanjog Aul [00:17:21]:
So Steve, in your view, what’s your experience has been with respect to IT taking or preempting a chance to become the leader versus trying to just be an enabler.

Stephen Bozzo [00:17:33]:
I love the way Hurricane Larry put that it really has to be a part of the business, or I think Larry put it as a fabric of the business. And that’s exactly right. In my view. The key is for it to enable the business. That’s what we’re all about and really in many respects to get out of the way of the business. So as quickly as possible implement good solid strategies and programs and technology that makes sense for the business so that we enable them and then quickly get out of the way of the business. I think of a couple of projects we have on the way right now. We’re just in the process of rolling out version seven Feature pack two of our Webster Commerce platform for E commerce and which is, in the forefront of that.

Stephen Bozzo [00:18:14]:
Very few companies have that at this point, but the whole idea there is to provide a tool for the business that’ll allow it to get out of their way. So there’s a tool in B7 called Management center where they take much more control over the technology than they ever did before. Another tool called precision marketing where they can do AB testing and dynamic chain segments, things like that. So we’re very excited about that but I agree with both what Larry and Harish said that we really have to be a part of the fabric of the business.

Sanjog Aul [00:18:44]:
So when we start with the next level where we are trying to say okay, we did ace, we did ace a few projects or did we did ace on a few initiatives where change was to be brought about. But then that was like, you know, one flash in the pan. But then most companies struggle with repeating success to the same degree that they had the first time or maybe, on the nth iteration. So Harish, do you think there is a problem in the way predictability is missing here or you think you can ever. You can never predict that there would be success in all possible change management initiatives.

Harish Ramani [00:19:25]:
I don’t know if you can. I think back to. We had commented earlier, I think it. There’s a couple of. There’s components that you have to have in place. Then having the components themselves is important, but in it by themselves aren’t going to provide you successful implementation. Successful change management.

Harish Ramani [00:19:41]:
I think what’s important is the execution of that. There’s a 2002 McKinsey study that showed that ROI for a project was over four times higher when change management was included in the initiative and those type of efforts and execution against change management are critical. If you want a repeatable, I think it goes to, people, process and technology. You have to have good people. You have to have a solid process, a solid plan and, and with on a good technology foundation but then it really comes down to execution.

Harish Ramani [00:20:12]:
You have to be able to execute.

Sanjog Aul [00:20:13]:
Now when you say that we have to be able to execute now, do you think everyone the way they created the plan, I mean they envisioned something and then they created a plan around it and then they went through the execution and then there was governance. You know, you got these different pieces that are to be put in place. Is that something which I can put on a portal as a checklist and I do it exactly the way it was supposed to be done and we can ensure success or there are some other unknowns, if you will. Can you reduce unknowns to the minimum and if yes. What, first of all we have to inventory what are those. I would not say unknowns, but the variables. Can you really control variables to the degree that you want to, Steve?

Stephen Bozzo [00:20:58]:
Well, there are always surprises. No question about that. I would be lying if I said otherwise, but I think as Eric put it, good process is everything. It’s all about people, process and tools where you thought and you end with people. If you have the best people, they will automatically follow a fairly rigid process and it’ll be natural to them. One of the things that we’ve implemented as well as a strong SDLP process, software development, delivery lifecycle where there is a checklist. You mentioned that Sanjog earlier that is there a checklist that you can follow? Absolutely. We do follow checklists and we check them off, we make sure they’re checked off.

Stephen Bozzo [00:21:31]:
If not, we go back and you know, follow up. So a good project plan, a good strong project management, oversight and governance are absolutely essential. Good solid communication at every level on a daily basis for a critical project and certainly more than anything else, transparency, just keeping the door open and making sure that everybody’s communicating in an honest fact and with integrity. Those are the key, I think to repeatable process.

Harish Ramani [00:21:56]:
Yeah and I think the other I get thought in my head is really IT projects. It’s not a pure science.

Harish Ramani [00:22:02]:
It’s a balance of the art in science of doing projects and keeping that in mind, you have to have strong and I think Steve talked about this in his data center move. You have to risk management is critical. You have to, you know there are going to be variables.

Harish Ramani [00:22:15]:
So how do you plan for variables? We had a similar situation. We moved to our data center consolidated into one with a third party outsource hosting company and we were planning for, is it going to rain sideways when we move? Guess what, it rained sideways. We had tarp over our data center that we were moving from ready to go. We were moving across borders from Canada. What would happen if we got delayed with the at the border gate? Well, we did a dry run with a smaller set of development hardware infrastructure and move that across and kind of been through a dry run of that. So you know, China there will be variables but how do you get the risk management and think through those scenarios is critical from a success perspective.

Stephen Bozzo [00:22:54]:
I remember a similar situation where we had a lot. We had rented air trucks to ship our equipment. So critical to make sure it got there intact and on time. One of the trucks got stopped, you know, it didn’t pass the weight restriction or something. They had to go back. We had a truck, a backup truck ready to take all the equipment off of that truck and then ship it so that we stayed on schedule. So basically being prepared for every eventuality is absolutely critical on a good project plan.

Sanjog Aul [00:23:19]:
Now is that like a Star Trek version of change management and execution or is this something realistic we can really do that. We actually sit down and inventory all possible things that could go wrong and try to create for backup for everything and there goes out of the window, the total ROI of the project because, you might be spending more in creating backups and or contingency planning versus the actual project resources.

Harish Ramani [00:23:45]:
I think that’s part of the project life bucket. Doing risk management and continuing planning. It’s critical.

Stephen Bozzo [00:23:50]:
Absolutely.

Harish Ramani [00:23:51]:
I don’t, I think that should be baked into the ROI component of the project. I mean, we bake it in, we sit down, we had sessions, whiteboard sessions. You know, think of the craziest thing that could happen and you know, you let just have a brainstorming section, write it down, then you can start thinking. Okay, that’s on the realm of, you know, Star Trek. Too crazy.

Stephen Bozzo [00:24:07]:
Exactly. It seems like we never have the money to do it right, but we always have the money to do it again.

Stephen Bozzo [00:24:13]:
If you do it right, you’ll actually save money. That’s what. That’s been our experience.

Sanjog Aul [00:24:19]:
Now, all along when we spoke about and I’d like to bring this stress, this point again is that we’ve been talking as if every change that you bring about is truly a project but then if I want to have my kids learn spelling and, or behave in front of other guests who come to my home or during a party, that’s a change management issue. You are getting them out of their comfort zone and, or their fabric that they were made of all along, isn’t that and also beyond that, as an individual, we go to the organization level. We know this is how an organization works. It works at a fast pace, which is a chaos and there is not no method to the madness yet.

Sanjog Aul [00:25:02]:
Now that’s. What if the change that you need to bring about, can you truly create a project plan around that? Larry?

Larry Bonfante [00:25:10]:
Well, I think what you’re talking about, you know, planning is important, but you need flexible planning because things are going to change. Things are going to pop out of the woodworking. You’d be able to react to that. But I think what you’re referring to is more changing the cultural aspect of how the organization reacts to change. I think that’s critically important. So engaging people throughout the process, having them feel a part of that process, taking a sense of ownership for that process, communicating throughout the process. I think that’s the critical thing, so that people have buy in and feel accountable for the outcomes. I think you change the culture first and then the behaviors follow behind

Larry Bonfante [00:25:48]:
but you have to change the culture. You have to change it agents because it is all about the people and once you get the people on board, then they can react to variables, they can react to things that go down and sideways on you but you got to change the culture before you know all the project plans in the world won’t be any good if people aren’t on board and boarding for what you’re trying to accomplish.

Sanjog Aul [00:26:10]:
So if Harish, if you were to go and look for these situations where you wanted to bring about change and it is against the very DNA of that organization and you want to get something accomplished, who sponsorship that you look for in order to bring about change, perhaps they are also part of that fabric. So they would not even want to see that changed. How do you handle that situation?

Harish Ramani [00:26:34]:
Well, first of all, there has to be a business value. That has to be a scientific change. I mean, change for the sake of change really doesn’t make a lot of sense. I think you have to first start, what’s the business value. What’s the business driver? What’s going to be the benefit of making this change? Because people want to understand if they’re going to have to pay a price, what’s the value at the end of that price so I think you have to really bring it down into business terms. What’s the value of that? Second, once you get your head around that and everybody’s in agreement, yeah, there is value there, then it’s really about leadership and, providing that leadership, that thought leadership and saying, look, we’re going to do a change, hold our hands together and march down the path together.

Harish Ramani [00:27:11]:
And once I think the rank and file see the leadership is aligned, they too will come to, to that alignment. Now, will there be a pocket of resistance here and there? Sure. Not everybody’s going to be happy with, with the change, but I think, I think it’s a strong alignment and there’s a value at the end of that alignment. I think you’re going to see in a position yourself for success.

Larry Bonfante [00:27:30]:
I would add one thing to that, which is I think you’re right. Business value needs to be clear but also it needs to be clear is every individual involved in a change is personal value. Every human being wants to know what’s in it for them and I think one of the things that we don’t do a good enough job of sometimes is really helping people connect the dots between what we’re asking them to do and the change effort and what they’re going to get out of that change, either as part of a team or individually. I think people buy into the change more effectively when they see the value in it. Personally for them and for their career, for their opportunities. The business value and the corporate value is great.

Larry Bonfante [00:28:03]:
But if they don’t see the personal connection, what they’re going to get out of the process, you’re not going to get as much involvement and alignment as you could.

Sanjog Aul [00:28:11]:
All right, let’s take a quick break and Steve, when we come back, would like to ask you, how do you manage above and below, un or lead from the middle when you have to bring about change because of course, if you want to be the leader and there are people who you report to for other intents and all intents and purposes, you got to kind of manage them too. And also same time, set examples for the people below you so that you are able to become the Pied Piper and everybody follows. So please stay tuned. We’ll be right back and discuss.

Sanjog Aul [00:31:34]:
Welcome back. So, Steve, leading above you, leading people above you and leading people below you is an interesting challenge because couple of things kind of play here. You got to wear a different type of hat where you know that these are the people I report to and I have to manage my boss and then people under you or who are reporting to you or not even reporting to you in some cases because they might be business unit leaders and or business users where you have an influence management, you still have to lead them and on top of all that, I’d like to another foot a curveball there. Do you always have an immunity that if you feel things are fine, it was a good learning, at least I do not think so. We have that luxury now and especially when your job is at stake. So with you as an IT leader, what position are you in order to handle it all the way it has been described?

Stephen Bozzo [00:32:29]:
Yeah, I think drug is challenging at best but we do have to manage all of these constituencies and we have to do so carefully, no question about it but like what Larry and Hari said earlier, that basically start with a value proposition on any project or any team. If you don’t have a strong business value to what you’re doing, just give it up at that point because you’re going to fail. There’s no question about it but once you do have a compelling story and a strong ROI, with that in hand, first and foremost, tell your management on it so you make sure you have, their endorsement. The last thing you want to do is go and sell to the rank and file and even the business and find that you don’t have the support of your management but with a strong ROI, that’s typically pretty easy to do

Stephen Bozzo [00:33:14]:
with that in hand, then you can go and sell it to the rank and file. You can sell it to your colleagues and your peers and then even your staff and it’s very important. I think you’re making a great point, Sanjog. You need to get your staff on board. They need to understand exactly why we’re doing this, what the rationale is and how powerful it is the institution to create competitive advantage or whatever. So that’s absolutely essential but finally, and maybe the immunity issue is you absolutely must have a business sponsor.

Stephen Bozzo [00:33:42]:
You need someone who’s going to be an evangelist, but not someone from IT. That evangelist must call from the business and they need to drive that project not only in its early phases as we begin to sell it to everybody, all the constituencies, all the stakeholders in the organization, but even more importantly, throughout the entire project right to completion, that business sponsor is absolutely critical in terms of their role as an evangelist for the project.

Sanjog Aul [00:34:07]:
So let’s put a situation on the table. You have a person who is very good at bringing about change and successfully executing initiatives and people who want to be led by this individual are doing it not because they salute the role, but the person who’s assuming that role and given the turnover at all leadership positions is less than three years or four years at best, how can you make that a repeatable process because of course, you do not fold your business in four years. So, Larry, how would you go ahead?

Larry Bonfante [00:34:44]:
Well, I think you touched on something very important. You can’t just plug different people into a role and people will have deference to a role, but they have respect for the person in that role. So you can’t just plug anybody generically into a role and expect to have a repeatable change because it’s all about influence, it’s all about relationship management, and it’s all about the person who’s leading that change initiative being a role model for the change that they want to see in the organization. So I don’t think you can do that. I think what you have to do is make sure that the leaders, you have certain qualities and certain characteristics that resonate with their audience and with the people they’re trying to lead to. I don’t think you can just do musical chairs and just plug any old person into an office and think you’re going to have repeatable success. I think that foolhardy at that.

Sanjog Aul [00:35:27]:
So, Harish, I’d like to ask you if you see a person really working well in a role, perhaps it could be you and people like to be led by you. How do you get them to agree to start paying respect and or follow somebody who may be your successor if they’ve not seen them in action because if they’re following a person, then there has to be some. Like they should like them and trust them and that will not happen till the time they see them on the job.

Harish Ramani [00:35:57]:
I mean, that’s a tough question it comes down to individual style and personalities and one would hope if I’m anointing somebody or picking somebody as my successor the confidence, the same confidence people had in me and leading the organization would also have the same confidence look, you know he’s going to make the right choice for the organization and for the company Is that the question?

Sanjog Aul [00:36:19]:
No, actually I am asking this question now while it is a tough one but then the goal here was to make it repeatable and if the repetition and or the success of or predictable success of any such initiative that is brought about by Harish cannot be transferred over to another individual then organization loses because I’m sure you might not retire at your existing organization as you did not in your previous tense so it should not be a people dependent success it should be more maybe not process but something else has to step in.

Harish Ramani [00:36:52]:
You know I don’t think you can decouple the individual or the person from a success of a project I mean you need people to make projects successful you need leadership to make projects successful so while you can have strong processes you can have very detailed project plan I think if you don’t have the right leadership you won’t have the right level of execution.

Sanjog Aul [00:37:13]:
So like that’s where exactly the point is and I would like to ask you Steve, suppose I stand outside of the situation and see this organization did a great job in executing this type of change management and now the people changed and now they’re doing a lousy job at best so how do I see this organization not mature enough? That’s how we label them why do we label them that way because it is so people dependent Is it a bad thing and if it is a bad thing then what else should be there? So that no matter which leadership comes as long as they have the basic traits and credit credentials and they’re able to lead with the right style the fact that the rest of the organization has to have to like them and trust them should be a part of the equation but not the only set of variables which should determine whether an initiative is going to be successful or not.

Stephen Bozzo [00:38:01]:
Yeah Sanjog, I think you’re exactly right I mean successful pain take place as a result of very good people but good process and good tools as well all three ingredients are essential. If any one of that triangle is weak the other features have to make up for it and invariably that will happen different phases during a project and may lose people as you mentioned if those people really critical people to a given project leave. We need to make up for that in the interim with good strong process and good strong pools and ultimately with some bench strength, people that have been trained take place to that person who’s left. So leadership is I think the most important thing, but it’s not the only important thing. There are other important ingredients as well that’ll allow it to be sustainable with respect to optic test as we move forward. Even the eventuality of people leaving but I think that’s the key. Good strong process and good strong tools in the absence of some people for some brief period of time.

Larry Bonfante [00:38:59]:
I would just comment now. I started talking about culture before. You know, if you’ve developed a culture in an organization, people are critical but if you have the right kind of culture and you’re bringing in the right kind of people, you can make changes over time and they’ll have the oath because the culture will contain only bringing people into that culture who will play well in that culture. But there’s no way you can separate organizational people because the people are what make the organization.

Sanjog Aul [00:39:28]:
I see. Okay, let’s take to the next level and we’ll of course call the break and come back and discuss but I want to pose this question. If we are trying to bring about a change, one is of course to bring the predictability and so that the command or the control is moved or the baton is handed over to the next leader. But at the same time the rest of the organization sometimes could benefit by not really be that hung up on what the end goal is going to be. Let’s go through the journey and end goal will happen as a result. While this is prescribed as a recipe for success, but is it truly a good recipe? Is it realistic for some people to say okay, I will join you blindsided and or you know, with blinders on and do not know where I’m going but I’m going to definitely try to contribute towards the journey. Please stay tuned.

Sanjog Aul [00:40:13]:
We’ll be right back.

Sanjog Aul [00:43:19]:
Welcome back. So let’s start with you Steve. Is it possible for any leader to say while I would like to get these results but frankly results don’t matter as you go about pursuing those results so that you do not get too focused on it and that way you may want to you start trying very hard towards achieving those results that might cause you to become more anxious and cause more mistakes. Is that a good way to loosen up and get people to be themselves and deliver?

Stephen Bozzo [00:43:51]:
I would argue that’s probably not the best threat to people’s success on Jaga. I think it’s imperative that we be transparent and in that transparency we very clearly articulate our goals and objectives of any given project. And more than that, that there be very clear accountability and responsibility and even right down to the milestone that we have measurable, quantifiable milestones that somebody is accountable for and that is very clear in terms of that accountability, and most important of all, that everybody buys into and agrees to the business value of completing that milestone and that project on time, on budget, and of the highest quality. I would argue that that kind of an approach is much, much better than not being as clear with respect to the golden objective.

Sanjog Aul [00:44:40]:
Now, let’s switch gears there. So you mentioned about the predictability that you need in a project execution. How about I want to change the organizational culture. Do you really want to be as picky about what this person does at what hour of the day?

Stephen Bozzo [00:44:57]:
I like to give my team latitude, no question. Especially in terms of work life balance. You know, sometimes they can accomplish more at home. You know, they may have a family situation where it’s better for them to work at home. So we’re not real rigid about that. What we are rigid about is accomplishing the objective. We try to give them as much latitude as they need with respect to that and they take accountability. We empower them and that works best for us at the time.

Sanjog Aul [00:45:23]:
Absolutely.

Larry Bonfante [00:45:24]:
You have to empower your people. I mean, if you’re babysitting your people, either you’re a terrible manager or you’ve hired the wrong people.

Stephen Bozzo [00:45:30]:
Exactly.

Larry Bonfante [00:45:30]:
You’ve got to empower the people. You got to set a very clear vision of what success looks like and you know, why we want to get there but then you got to unleash their creative powers to get there. You can’t be telling them or food feeding them every inch of the way as to how to get there.

Sanjog Aul [00:45:45]:
Harish, go ahead.

Harish Ramani [00:45:47]:
Want to be successful. Right. They want to come in, they want to make a difference. Right. That’s what you want to tap into. And you know, I think you have the appropriate guardrails in place or people know what to do, what not to do. But I think between those guardrails, I think you have to give them the flexibility and the ownership to do what they need to do to execute.

Sanjog Aul [00:46:03]:
Do you think you can let go of those guardrails just to try it out, to see what better can these people do because we, I think, come traditionally from a command and control structure and it’s tough for us to let go. Do you think people may not innovate and get it done faster, cheaper, better than what you expect if you were to lower the guardrails?

Larry Bonfante [00:46:22]:
Harish, you’ve got to give them the opportunity to innovate and you’ve got to create an environment and a culture where even risk taking is rewarded, where when they try something that doesn’t work the first time it’s not viewed as a failure, but it’s viewed as a learning experience that they could leverage in the future. So you’ve got to create a culture where people feel safe to take risks, safe to take innovative steps and use their creativity. Command and control is absolutely, in my opinion, a recipe for failure moving forward in any endeavor in I see.

Stephen Bozzo [00:46:55]:
Yeah.

Sanjog Aul [00:46:56]:
So, Harish, what about the size of the initiative, do you think? When people say we have to bring about change, and again, let’s keep the project mindset aside, a change that you want to bring in an organization, how do you size something up to say, this is just the right bite size that we should chew and make the best use of this and then take the next byte?

Harish Ramani [00:47:17]:
I think, you know, again, from a planning perspective, you have to put it into the manageable chunks.

Harish Ramani [00:47:23]:
And also you have to be far enough to understand what are the core capabilities and competencies of your organization and where do you need to go outside to bring in that expertise and that talent. I think that’s also an important trait from a leadership perspective, knowing what you do well and also knowing what you don’t do well because like all of us know in the technology area, we can’t be experts in every single field, every single component. We do have to go outside and get the right vendors and the right partners in place to help us execute, but the combination of both of those.

Sanjog Aul [00:47:52]:
So, Steve, if you were to be given a rowboat and you got 50 people who are rowing it, you cannot have one person or three people rowing differently than from the rest. 48. So as you keep getting more and more people into an organization or people exit, you got to have these people come hit the ground rowing it the same way that you want the rest of the same way the rest of them are rowing at that time. How about creating a playbook for your repeatable process? Not again for just project management, but for change initiatives? Is that realistic?

Stephen Bozzo [00:48:24]:
It is realistic and it’s also essential. I mean, there’s no other recipe for success that I’m aware of other than having a playbook and having a fairly rigid set of guidelines that we all can follow in a checklist. As you mentioned earlier, sanjog, the SDLC process that we follow is one that’s absolutely essential. You know, rigid in the sense that there are deliverables, there are tasks that have to be accomplished, but on the same token, you know, giving the individual the freedom to get it done the way they want to get it done. You know, the work life balance, as I mentioned earlier, is very important as well. That gives them the freedom to do what they need to do to get the job done and that’s absolutely essential.

Stephen Bozzo [00:49:00]:
I think Larry said it earlier, we need to empower out staff. You can’t do that by monitoring their every move. So yeah, I mean, we get people rolling in the same direction by setting up strong leaders and putting the right processes in place that are easy to follow.

Sanjog Aul [00:49:15]:
Now, when we look at the weakest links, I would not really call it weakest link, but just for the sake of argument, rest of the business versus IT, we are seen as people from different planet, structured differently, wired differently, think differently, et cetera. So do you think when you want to bring organization wide change, are we the ones who could pose that weakest link issue or is there a way to avoid that given the way we think and act and process things differently? Harish, why don’t you take that.

Harish Ramani [00:49:49]:
I don’t know if I like the term a week of link. I mean, from an IT perspective, what we do, yeah, we’re very process driven, very structured in how we need to get things done but I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing even on the business side, right? I mean there’s there, there are big business initiatives, big business project. There’s a whole new concept and a whole new area now with project management in the business, right? Not as, maybe not as detailed and rigorous as IT projects, but that concept of project management, you know, the SDLC for business project. I think you see leading companies, they’re adopting having PMO type of organization in the business. So I think the business is learning from, you know, a structured process, why, you know, why it’s important to do IT projects. But how if it can benefit business projects, right? So all right, so I don’t think we’re a weakling. I think we are.

Harish Ramani [00:50:37]:
We provide some different ways of executing projects well, either business or it, but I think process is important and it’s being recognized as an important component.

Sanjog Aul [00:50:47]:
All right, so each of you 15 seconds each tell the top three qualities that a leadership we should have in it who could successfully lead repeatable successes when you want to bring about change. Larry, let’s start with you.

Larry Bonfante [00:51:03]:
I would say the person has to be a relationship manager. The person has to be an excellent communicator, and the person has to be somebody who could inspire people to want to rally around the common vision, Steve?

Stephen Bozzo [00:51:14]:
Transparency, absolutely essential communication skills Larry mentioned, no question about it, but also compassion, the ability to really feel and sense a strong sense of empathy with all of their staff and everybody that they’re working with, all of their stakeholders.

Harish Ramani [00:51:32]:
Finally, Harish, nothing much to different, Adam, I would agree. Number one should be communication skill, two, leadership skills, and three, adaptability would be critical for me.

Sanjog Aul [00:51:43]:
Great. On behalf of the show and listeners, thank you so much. Steve, Larry and Harish, I guess what we learned from this today is that there is no, of course, secret sauce but then if you have the right ingredients, you can at least have a pretty good probability of success. Thank you so much.

Stephen Bozzo [00:51:59]:
Our pleasure.

Larry Bonfante [00:52:00]:
Thanks.

Sanjog Aul [00:52:02]:
If you have any questions, please send us to views @ciotalkradio.com. that is views @ciotalkradio.com.

Sanjog Aul [00:52:08]:
Thank you again for listening to CIO Talk radio. This is Sanjog Aul your talk show host. Till next week take care and god bless.

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