Is it possible to lead well when you’re not the top leader?  How about if the person you work for is a bad leader?  The answer is a resounding yes! People who desire to lead from the middle of organizations face unique challenges.  So how do you develop them as individuals and get them to add value?

Contributor

• • Bruce G. Schinelli, VP of IT and Chief Information Officer, TTX Company

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Transcript 

Sanjog Aul [00:00:22]:

Hello, and welcome to this segment on CIO Talk Network. To learn more about us, visit ciotalknetwork.com. And as always, we invite you to join the discussion on Twitter and look for the show as hashtag leadership and hashtag Wednesday wisdom. Today’s topic is Building and Harnessing 360 Degree Leaders  , and we have Bruce G. Schinelli, Vice President of IT and Chief Information Officer for TTX Company. Hey, Bruce. How are you?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:00:50]:

I’m really good, Sanjog.

Sanjog Aul [00:00:52]:

Very good. Thank you so much for joining.

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:00:55]:

Yeah.

Sanjog Aul [00:00:56]:

So today, the topic we wanted to take because I know you’re a great leader and you’ve always championed the fact that we have to build other leaders. One thing is to talk about succession planning where suppose you win a lottery and move on, then somebody has to take the helm and they should be prepared. But there are many other levels in the hierarchy, even though we’re trying to become flat organizations. There are people in middle management or who are aspiring leaders but haven’t achieved that title yet. For some reason, not having that title makes them feel as if they cannot lead. That’s what we need to demystify. People have been talking about leading from the middle, but is it been given lip service or do people actually understand what it means and how to maximize it? That’s what we wanted to discuss today. To that end, it seems 99% of leadership feels, and it occurs not from the top down but from the middle of the organization. That’s what most leaders and most organizational development people say. Is that true? 

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:02:13]:

I think that’s absolutely true, Sanjog. The point about leadership is that if you look at the top, there’s a few people. An old saying I’ve always liked is that the pyramid gets really small at the top. If that’s true, you’re going to have to have a broad spectrum of people with leadership qualities throughout your organization, and that should get larger the further you get away from the top of the hierarchy. So you’re observing what’s in the real world: you’re going to have more leaders or people that exhibit leadership qualities throughout an organization, even if you make the relatively broad assumption that everybody at the top is a leader.

Sanjog Aul [00:03:13]:

So if that’s the case and you say the pyramid is small at the top — while I’m not sure about your organization — many organizations say we have leaders, and then we have mid managers. But you say we are a bunch of leaders working together. 

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:03:35]:

What? 

Sanjog Aul [00:03:35]:

What is preventing us from saying that?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:03:38]:

Well, I think you’ve got to make a distinction. I look at it that there’s management and there’s leadership, and the two are different. One succinct way I’ve heard is that management is about giving a set of tasks and getting somebody to do them. Leadership is about winning hearts and minds. Management is saying this needs to be done; leadership is about how we get people to want to do the things that need to be done in the way that is most effective for the organization. 

Sanjog Aul [00:04:35]:

So with that definition, let’s take an example in the IT org. You have a software developer, then a team leader who’s technically leading them, then a manager, then a director, a vice president, and a CIO. Their reportees will be told to get a job done in a certain way — that’s the management hat. But to make them perform their best, they need leadership. In many cases, you need more leadership than direction. Would you then say management and leadership coexist in everyone? 

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:05:18]:

They do coexist. I’m not saying you only have one without the other. What I’m saying is to manage is not necessarily to lead.

Sanjog Aul [00:05:31]:

Sure.

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:05:32]:

Right. You have that distinct hierarchy. In general, start at the top: the closer you are to the top, the more it’s about strategy and direction; it’s less about doing. If you’re doing the same thing as your boss, one of you is redundant. At the top you’re setting strategy and direction. The closer you get to the bottom, it’s more about doing. That doesn’t mean you can’t lead in your doing. It’s about whether you’re just doing what you’re told or you understand what you’re supposed to do and are adding value on top of that. It also means spreading that word and helping those around you. The higher you are, the more you can say I want you to do this this way — that’s not necessarily helpful. Leading by influence, the closer you get to the bottom, is key because that’s how you first learn. You can see your most effective leaders if they can influence those around them with natural leadership skills. That’s what you want to look at and develop.

Sanjog Aul [00:07:17]:

So with this description, typically when someone is doing management — setting expectations, laying out tasks — that instruction comes from outside in. But leadership, which is influence, has to come from inside out, from that person’s value system and beliefs. If you have the right ingredients, the person will demonstrate it. You must work on the ingredients that make a leader. If you introduce and develop those ingredients, a manager who otherwise is just assigning tasks can also demonstrate leadership. A challenge is where the manager doesn’t demonstrate it because they feel helpless or don’t believe it’s their responsibility or don’t feel capable. How do you get these people who are expected to have it but either don’t have the ingredient or have the wrong belief system?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:08:42]:

I’m sorry. Say the last part again.

Sanjog Aul [00:08:44]:

The last part: they don’t feel they’re capable.

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:08:49]:

Leadership skills, in my opinion, are like any other skill. We all have them through nature or nurture to greater or lesser extents. Natural leaders already feel capable. The ones you’re looking for in succession are those who can overcome challenges of not being believed, who try different ways to get their ideas across and don’t allow the world to stop them. It’s belief, like in entrepreneurs. Leadership is like a muscle: different traits are different muscles. You have to exercise them, try different things and techniques to build them. It’s incumbent upon other leaders to help people do the same. You shouldn’t say everyone has leadership skills in equal measure and we just have to train them — that’s not true. Everybody can lead to some extent; some people have bigger muscles. You have to look at the leadership you have and identify those you can help along. 

Sanjog Aul [00:11:13]:

It does. To add another perspective: suppose you have a manager. You mentioned succession planning. You want them to show natural leadership. Even at the level of a manager, you want that person to bring the best out of their people. For that, you need to see if they have the ingredients to influence people and make them feel their best — that’s leadership. We may subconsciously call them manager but look for leadership traits. In some cases people live the manager title without developing or demonstrating leadership traits, yet they are still put in the role, which undermines team outcomes because the manager remains only a manager.

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:12:24]:

That’s absolutely the case, and it’s not unique to IT. In every industry you see it. Often when someone has an overdeveloped set of skills in one area, people assume it translates to other skill sets. For example, a great individual salesperson may be promoted to head of sales and the magic doesn’t spread. The ability to inspire or teach others doesn’t necessarily translate to closing sales. Same in IT: someone may be a fantastic single contributor, loved by coworkers and customers, but when promoted to manage a help desk team, they may fail because you didn’t look at their true leadership skill sets.

Sanjog Aul [00:14:13]:

Yes. It does. We’ll take a quick break. When we come back, let’s explore the same idea in the context of a 360-degree leader. If a manager does not demonstrate leadership skills and thus cannot influence, how about identifying traits they could acquire to lead not only their reports but also influence peers and bosses positively for the best organizational outcome? What are those traits? Stay tuned. We’ll be right back.

Sanjog Aul [00:16:10]:

Welcome back. So in order for a middle manager — the manager we were discussing who may just be doing the right things and being a taskmaster — to acquire traits to be an effective and influential middle leader so they can impact their reports, peers, and bosses, what would that take?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:16:39]:

I think it takes a lot of personal credibility and the right measure of risk-taking. It’s about understanding the mission. Managing up is a unique art; there’s no secret to it. If your boss wants something, you drop everything and do it.

Sanjog Aul [00:17:15]:

But is that the right way when the boss says I want this and it may not be in the organization’s best interest — you drop everything and do it? That seems questionable. At the same time, if you have to manage up and you know you could do something different that’s better for the organization, the person should be able to say, “I’ll do this for you, and I also have this other thing we have to do; how do you want to handle it so we create more value?” Without alienating the boss. That’s managing up, isn’t it?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:18:02]:

Kind of. You’re there to try to keep them out of trouble. When I say drop everything and do what they ask, I’m not saying do it like a robot. You should have an opinion and express it strongly. But the secret for a middle manager to be a great leader is to be a great follower. Sometimes you have to shut up and soldier. If I’m a middle manager and my CEO says do this, I can tell him I disagree, but if he insists, I have to own it. I can’t tell my direct reports “we got to do this, so do the best you can” and expect good results.

Sanjog Aul [00:19:24]:

Probably not. 

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:19:25]:

So you have to own that and believe it’s the best thing for the organization at that time. I can give my opinion, but short of saying “cook the books”, I must own it as my idea. I go to my group and say we have a new direction, we’re going to do this and that, and you have to act like you own it. If you don’t, you’ll never be a really great leader.

Sanjog Aul [00:20:09]:

On the surface, owning it even though you disagreed may seem like demoting yourself to a manager. But when you accept it and paint a picture to make it the vision, you become a conduit for the top boss to the rest of the team so the lieutenants execute on it.

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:20:40]:

I’m going to interrupt and be very clear. You don’t act or think in the back of your mind “I would have done it differently” because humans pick up subtle cues when you don’t believe it, like body language and facial expression. When I say own it, I mean own it. You’re going to execute it and make it work. You have to believe it; if you don’t, nobody else will.

Sanjog Aul [00:21:21]:

So in your view, when training your lieutenants about the same skill, how do you get them to process instructions, set aside their own thinking, and genuinely own the leader’s direction rather than resent it? Many middle managers will feel they’re just getting orders versus owning it.

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:22:18]:

The difference is a learning process. For example, development teams and infrastructure teams approach problems differently and that can create conflict about direction. Who breaks ties? That’s typically me. If I decide we need to move to DevOps and someone objects they’re not set up for that, I’ve listened to concerns, but I want solutions, not reasons why you can’t. We’re going to do this. If a manager goes back and says “I don’t think this is a great idea, but the boss says we have to do it,” does that sound inspirational? No. That’s why I expect my senior leadership to own decisions. If I hear they don’t, that’s a leadership performance issue. I’m paying people to be leaders. They should give their opinion, but when a decision is made, shut up and soldier.

Sanjog Aul [00:24:06]:

Definitely not.

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:24:09]:

Those are real examples that happen every day. My expectation of senior leadership is they own decisions. If I hear they don’t, that’s a leadership performance issue. I promoted them to be leaders: give me your best opinion, but when a decision is made, you have to shut up and soldier. As for middle managers, what I look for is whether they understood my message and are owning it. I also take messages I get from the board or our CEO about strategy and try to execute them to the best of my ability.

Sanjog Aul [00:25:26]:

So let’s take a quick break, listeners. What we will do is talk about the areas where CEOs are making a difference. Suppose in your role as CIO you’re making a difference. Everyone attempts to, but below a certain level, myths cause people to believe they cannot make a difference. They can execute orders but cannot innovate or demonstrate initiative. What is to be done so those carrying the myths — that they cannot lead because they aren’t at the top — are identified and demystified? Is that being done formally or consciously? If not, you have high-quality value getting squelched and the company loses. What does it take? We’ll explore that when we come back from the break. Please stay tuned.

Sanjog Aul [00:27:58]:

Welcome back. Bruce, what myths prevent managers from becoming leaders or make people believe they cannot lead until they get to the top? What could those myths be and how do we get rid of them so we don’t undermine the performance potential of the middle layer and so the company benefits?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:28:24]:

My first myth is thinking you don’t have enough or the right resources to get things done. People say “if I don’t have six more people I can’t do it.” A key question is not what you can’t do, but what you can do. Nobody cares about what you can’t do; we want to know what you can do. Do you understand the objective and desired outcome? Can you get it done? Second myth is letting perfection be the enemy of good enough. Many think they need all the pieces in place for a process to work; that’s not true. What can you do now? The biggest myth is believing you can’t impact anything because of culture or other obstacles. Those are obstacles to be overcome.

Sanjog Aul [00:30:19]:

If people carry those myths, and you see them, how do you help them convert and unravel those myths or help them overcome obstacles? What specific actions, coaching, or learning should be imparted so they stop carrying them? Or should this be seen as a nurture issue and those people removed if you cannot change it?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:30:58]:

That may be the case, but one way is to give them a leadership test: acknowledge their beliefs and experience, then ask “what can you do with what you have? Come back with what you can accomplish given your resources.” Good leaders should know the art of the possible and set stretch but doable goals. That’s part of the training. If you always have the same discussion, you’ve made no progress. A strong leader will start adapting and answer those questions before you ask.

Sanjog Aul [00:32:12]:

There are people in the organization demonstrating it. As a leader, are you supposed to have feedback mechanisms extended ears and eyes  to spot them? And are there specific ways to tackle pockets that aren’t working so the bleeding stops?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:32:35]:

I think if you have those leadership principles, I want my senior IT leadership to expect the same things from their managers. It should pay itself down the chain. My eyes and ears are those around me; they should be doing that. If they’re not, I have issues. You’re working on creating circumstances by which everyone should do it. Then you can see pockets that aren’t working and look for other ways, different motivations, or make changes.

Sanjog Aul [00:33:33]:

Even if you have great top leadership and lieutenants, the rest of the organization may still have concerns: something gets lost in translation or middle leaders aren’t transforming. Would you attribute that to a wrong hire and live with it, or try to help them be more successful and replace them if necessary? There are many managers across organizations who don’t demonstrate leadership and that harms productivity or causes exits.

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:34:51]:

I’ll challenge your assumption that top leadership is good. If they were, they’d be taking care of that. If they say middle management is no good, look to the top: you’re either not developing people or you have the wrong people. Upper leadership is all about people, whether sales, marketing, technology, or operations. It all comes down to people.

Sanjog Aul [00:35:43]:

So the question is…

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:35:47]:

No. I was just going to say technical stuff comes separate. 

Sanjog Aul [00:35:51]:

In cases where the leader is not effective, middle managers shouldn’t feel orphaned. What advice do you have for middle managers who recognize top leadership is weak but still want to lead from the middle, grow themselves, and add value without using the ineffective leader as an excuse?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:36:52]:

It goes back to supporting the leadership you have. You can express an opinion, but you have to do things in a way that supports your leaders. There’s no magic bullet. Generally, you’re getting things done in a way that supports the vision from senior leadership and inspiring those beneath and around you. Even as a new developer, small leadership could be bringing a new tool and helping others. You can always do the best with what you have; ask whether you’re supporting the vision and getting things done in the manner expected. If you can’t, then move elsewhere.

Sanjog Aul [00:38:29]:

In this scenario, is it the responsibility of the top person alone? Aren’t there people responsible for organizational development — HR or others — who should ensure the organization isn’t dependent on one person? Is there a way to make performance of middle management people-independent so it’s not tied to a specific leader?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:39:11]:

Different organizations look at human capital differently. You’d like help from HR and programs, but you can’t depend on that in every organization 

Sanjog Aul [00:39:30]:

So you’re saying becoming a 360-degree leader — leading from the middle — is primarily dependent on top leadership at a given time for a middle manager to lead effectively. If someone else comes in, we may again undermine that person’s capability. Is that a truth we must accept and create strategies around?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:40:01]:

Yes, and here’s why. Everybody is a 360-degree leader. If you get philosophical, senior leadership is a function not of title but of scale. I could start a company and call myself CEO, but with an employee base of one, I’m still leading myself and my customers. A CEO of a large multinational answers to a board and markets. Everybody is a 360-degree leader. If you’re in middle management or deep in IT, leadership is about affecting those around you, doing things that help those above you and helping those around you contribute so you create more value than working alone. Even if you don’t get great leadership from above, you can still exhibit great leadership skills.

Sanjog Aul [00:42:51]:

Let’s take a quick break. We’ll be right back and talk about inspiration, which is important for leaders at any level. If you’re in a large organization with poor culture and ineffective leaders, and you want to lead from the middle and own it, you need inspiration and energy. Where does that spark come from? Stay tuned.

Sanjog Aul [00:44:45]:

Welcome back. If top leadership is ineffective and the culture isn’t conducive, but you’re in middle management and need to keep your leadership trait, you need inspiration and energy to continue delivering. Where does that spark come from?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:45:16]:

I think first it comes from inside. If you don’t believe in yourself, others likely won’t. Good leaders have a strong belief system. Second, take inspiration from other places you’ve been — maybe places where things were different — and think what small behaviors you can do to move the organization. First inspiration is internal; second comes from positive past experiences. Between the two you can craft a way to get up and get things done.

Sanjog Aul [00:46:47]:

I read a book called Fish that says if you cannot change the environment, bring the best attitude and that will make a difference. But is there any organizational responsibility back to that middle leader? Is there anyone within the organization who would notice and help people who are struggling so they don’t “bite the dust” because they don’t know where to go?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:47:35]:

If an organization is ineffective you’ll often see it and these things tend to self-correct over time. Changes in leadership often lead to cultural change. Affecting big things like culture as a middle manager is difficult; the thing you can affect is yourself and how you’re perceived. Even in a bad organization, people who execute to the best of their ability, own the message coming down, and maintain a positive attitude often get noticed and may be recruited elsewhere. So always do those things.

Sanjog Aul [00:49:12]:

If a middle leader has an idea better than their boss’s and more subject knowledge, sharing it may come across as “who is he telling me?” or be seen as patronizing. Any tips for not sounding patronizing and instead partnering with bosses so you increase influence over your reports and create more value?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:50:09]:

Wait. Run that by me again.

Sanjog Aul [00:50:11]:

Yeah. The boss has ideas and knowledge; you have better ideas and want their blessing while leading them, without sounding patronizing.

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:50:28]:

A good way is sometimes it’s easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission — be careful though. If your ideas are better and you can execute and get results, that’s one approach. Second, give credit to your boss; people will know who actually did the work but giving credit preserves relationships.

Sanjog Aul [00:51:23]:

Those are great tips. One last question: are there boundaries when leading from the middle to avoid stepping on toes or seeming grandiose? What boundaries must a middle manager observe? 

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:51:47]:

We’ve covered them. When given direction from leadership, you need to own it and show that to those around and beneath you. You can only complain up, not down or around. Complain to your boss, not your team. Owning direction is the price of leadership; it shows genuineness and builds trust. Then execute with no reservations and don’t say “if we’d done it my way it would have been better.”

Sanjog Aul [00:52:50]:

So if your idea gets shot down, are there boundaries? Do you just accept that someone doesn’t recognize your contribution and shut up and do what’s asked? Is that the boundary?

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:53:25]:

Yes, I think so. You shouldn’t take it to the nth degree. Leadership is about integrity; small acts that go against what’s been asked erode integrity.

Sanjog Aul [00:54:11]:

No. This is great input. Thank you so much for the way you’ve explained both areas, whether you have an idea or your boss has an idea, how to handle it. On behalf of the show and our listeners, I’d really like to thank you, Bruce. This was a great conversation. I think we dug deeper into how we can help develop and harness these 360-degree leaders developing within an organization. Thank you so much.

Bruce G. Schinelli [00:54:37]:

Great. Thank you. Thank you.

Sanjog Aul [00:54:39]:

Listeners, enjoy the conversation and please like us on Facebook — search for CIO Talk Network — be sure to follow us on Twitter and join our LinkedIn group. Thank you again for listening to this segment on CIO Talk Network. This is Sanjog Aul, your talk show host. Till next week, take care, and God bless.